definitely awesome post, hugely useful and professionally written.. beneficial career…

Many amateur or semi-professionals love photography and love the creativity in their hands. New technology has made this even easier for the non-professional. But to try to then make money at it..? I’ll leave that for the pros.

Posted 24 Nov 2007 at 10:59 pm ¶

in terms of amateur versus professional, one thing that concerns with with the younger crowd is that maybe they miss the ability to light an challenging assignment, and really do not stop to think that what they show in their portfolio will probably not reflect what actual assignments they receive.

i think with these newer digital cameras, they are just too good. it makes it too easy. the good results come too quickly. this is good, but it can also deceive a person also, that they are ready to be a professional, and ready to start out. set camera to auto everything, and pretty good odds that pretty good image will result. but this is only with available light. what happens if they receive a job that requires lighting. what happens to young professional then? they fall on face.

thus, you have whole crop of young photographers running around with auto-cameras, but no knowledge of challenging assignments. no lighting knowledge. my assistants tell me of one photographer who does not know how to light, but he is good with photoshop. so, photographer has to hire assistants with lighting knowledge, and they light picture for him, but then, photographer actually require assistant to sign a form, saying they won’t tell other photographer how they light his pictures.

taking pictures is rather small part of establishing long term career in photography. you might last somewhat long, but not the long term. new easy cameras can be dangerous and deceiving.

wish everyone the best. keep studying.

conrad erb (not leaving a website address in order to appease the thread police)

Humility is very important to me because I remember the people who treated me like shit on my way up and I’m sure whomever I disrespect now will gladly return the favor on my way back down.

When I post something I usually don’t have time to think through all the implications but I’ve decided that’s what makes the comments so interesting on this blog. I was having a conversation with one of my photo editors about all the inane photography questions we answer when we tell people what we do for a living and decided to post it.

This stupid post a comment box is too small and I need to fix it asap.

I don’t troll the comments looking for photographers to hire but I do think people should always post their websites when not operating anonymously so we can see who we’re talking to.

If people want to share their photography they should post it on Photo Rank. I’m not going to declare it dead after a couple weeks. I’ve discovered some cool photography there.

Telling me I’m an idiot will not end this blog. You are entitled to your opinion. The only thing I know for certain is that there’s so much I don’t know.

Sadly, over Thanksgiving no one showed me photos of TK place that I could use in my magazine if I ever need them.

Just like in any creative endeavor, such as painting, or music, there is so much more to being a professional than talent alone. There are plenty of (in my opinion) bad photographers, musicians, and artists making a living, while extremely talented ones work regular old day jobs their entire lives, never making much money from their creative pursuits.

I’ve been a professional bicycle mechanic, professional credit and collections manager, professional accounts payable manager, professional sales person, professional writer, professional web developer, professional photography studio manager, professional photo assistant, and for the last five or so years, professional photographer.

I prefaced all of the above jobs or careers (depending on how you look at things) with “professional” just so there would be no questions as to whether or not I was a professional credit and collections manager, or just an amateur.

The funniest aspect to the whole debate, or discussion, is that anyone cares at all. I mean, no one ever asked me if I was a professional anything, until it came to photography. I guess the difference being that people may harbor a dream of one day becoming a professional (which, I think, to them means earning a living) photographer, while rarely, if ever, would anyone dream of becoming a professional credit and collections manager. And it’s unlikely that someone pursues credit and collections with the same passion that millions of people pursue photography. If all credit and collections managers did pursue their jobs with the same amount passion all receivables over 120 days old would be below 2%. And if people dreamed of being credit and collections managers, people would be doing it for free (and no one is, believe me), because companies would have hundreds of graduates of the latest, over priced, School of Credit and Collections, sending them endless promotional pieces and willing to do whatever it takes to get a break.

Many people think that being a photographer is fun. And, I’d agree. It is. It’s also hard work, and, for me at least, lots of long hours. At this point in my life I wouldn’t trade it for much else. People ask me about being or becoming a professional photographer all the time. As in pretty much every day. Personally I don’t have an issue with most questions. I can’t complain about photographers charging rates that are too low, or giving away rights to their images, if I’m not willing to share my knowledge of the business. I really wish more photographers had been willing to share when I was starting out. This is my own personal feeling on the topic, and may or may not have any relevance to the original post, as this is somebody else’s blog.

I also want to mention that ignorance on a career or endeavor is not the sole domain of photography. When I bicycle raced, I was asked at every family function when I was going to “enter the Tour de France.” As if all it took was filling out a form and paying the entry fee. I was also constantly told that I had the coolest job while working as a bike mechanic. The comment was usually followed up with another along the lines of, “I’d love to have your job.” To which I would usually reply, “you can have this job. You’ll just have to give up your job as a defense attorney…”

Now, I could also add, “you could do it in your spare time, as an amateur…”

My response to the editorial debate going on is that it doesn’t pay well, but sometimes they’re fun, which is the same thing those who give away their work say. I’ve done exactly one editorial shoot in the last two years, and have had no shortage of commercial work.

My two cents on the comments regarding resentment by “old timers” (not my phrase), is that there is plenty of resentment. This too, of course, is not limited to photography. Things change, and many people don’t like it.

This leads to my final comment on the of lamented pay of photographers. This, as well, is not limited to photography. The long time writers at the local papers, here in Metro Detroit, used to made big bucks. Eventually a big strike broke out when the papers refused to pay what the writers wanted. This dragged on for years until a crop of younger writers came in as “scabs” and accepted lower pay, breaking the strike and ushering in an era of much lower pay for both the writers and photographers at the paper.

It’s not talent, skills, the number of years of experience, or the difficulty of the job that determines the pay, it’s the amount of demand and the level of supply that usually determines the pay. If someone really wants you (and no one else will do) they’ll pay a lot. If someone else can, and will do it cheaper, well…

I am not disparaging photoshop – its just another tool.

My point is that I sense resentment from the old timers – I don’t consider myself old – on the “internets” (thank you Stephen Colbert) about perceived amateurs not paying their dues the way they did. Its not possible. Don’t you think the lab owners and c-printers resent the digital age? Same thing. The real point is that there will always be a learning curve or process or whatever and the ones with professional practices, along with talent, luck, passion and perseverance will succeed. Its a winnowing out process. I refuse to live in the mindset of “things just ain’t like they used to be” – I don’t have time for it. I illustrate the “in my day” stuff as a way for others to understand the point of view of many photographers around the world who do feel resentful of the perceived ease in which new talent enters the marketplace. In some ways jmgiordano, we are on the same page. Quit bitching and keep shooting, right?

Learning from others on this blog is what its all about. If you don’t appreciate that then you too are just another tool. Cheap shots make you (and me) look bad
Cocky can be mighty unappealing. Good luck with that and keep on swimming.

“tight as shit” … does that mean good? I’m still trying to get used to “that’s phat”.

When I was an RIT student in the 1980′s I learned optics, densitometry, color printing in the dark – all things that have helped me immensely in embracing and excelling in this digital age (histogram anyone?). However, I no longer soup my film and I haven’t touched trays or fixer in god knows how long.

My point is that an amateur or aspiring professional 20 years ago had to get his or her hands dirty – had to scratch the film, put it on the reel incorrectly once, make mistakes that were time consuming, costly and frustrating. You really had to know how things work in order to get the desired results. Trial and error took time and patience. The dedication and passion required a much longer learning curve.

Today we look at the screen on our Mark III’s or Eizo’s or whatever and our errors are immediately apparent and instantly correctable with a re-capture or a curves layer. The ease of manipulation and the ability to interpret the image has become taken for granted. The amateur has access to the same data set we professionals do. If paying one’s dues in the past required becoming one of the albino mole people who lived in the darkroom for days on end, it has now become the slump shouldered, tired eyed look of the computer user. Maybe proficiency in CS3 is akin to the education in photography I got in the 80′s? Who knows….

Regardless, we are speaking about the here and now and what separates the amateur from the professional. As we all know this business operates on many levels and there are thousands of working professionals toiling in every trench (read specialty) imaginable. The difference is that for professionals this is a business and while it is nice to call yourself a photographer and feel the pleasure of being a free agent, there are bills to pay, children to raise, homes to maintain and health insurance to keep up with. My point is that you had damn well better be a business-person or you will find yourself in hot water fast. This is an unforgiving marketplace with no industry accreditation other than your eagerness to do a job and do it well. Of course talent is paramount. That is a given. You will get nowhere with crappy pictures. But nether will you succeed with a shitty attitude, poor handshake (APE is right!), poor production value or true lack of experience.

It helps to put yourself in the art buyer’s shoes – or the photo editor’s. They are the same for the most part in that their ass is on the line for every decision and recommendation they make. Their choice in hiring you is a vote of confidence. Let them down in any way and you will not be asked back to that particular party. It starts with the first phone or email contact ( how do you sound when you answer the phone?) to the invoice – is it clearly paginated, neat, makes sense and adds up?
That photo editor that just spent an extra 20 minutes adding up and adjusting your numbers to correct them is harboring the teeniest bit of resentment at making him/her work a little harder at something that should have been right the first time.

We professionals do not have the luxury of operating like Kinko’s or the Post Office. Screw up once and more often than not you have lost a client. Loyalty is hard to come by if only because the rainbow of talent out there is so vast and tasty ,why not try all the flavors?

I named myself the shark in this post because like a shark I must keep swimming to stay alive in this business. Take a rest by not creating new work, sit back and let the two year old book work for you (not!) and you would soon be on the sea floor decaying. The professional is always innovating, pushing himself beyond what he/she already knows. The professional is passionate and smart and witty and is a good manager of people. The professional is not satisfied with good enough – cannot afford to be otherwise. The professional is inclusive and a good teacher. The professional delivers time and time again with a smile on his/her face and the best crew possible supporting him/her.

So when my Uncle Mel asks me how to use his Canon Elph or whatever, I sit down with him and show him how to override the exposure with backlighting and that just about makes his day. When I moved to the burbs with the Mrs and little ones in tow and the nabes asked me if I shot weddings rather than be offended or haughty I said I didn’t know how but could call a few friends and see if they had any recommendations.

Being a professional is about NOT feeling resentment toward the amateur. Its about coming from a place of abundance and realizing that you have paid your dues. Everyone does in one way or another.

As I stated before, talent is paramount but you had damn well better have the stamina, will and intestinal fortitude to follow through. Otherwise you are a dabbler and will find yourself with a lot of free time on your hands.

“…would be interesting to pass a law: For commercial photographers, you must post one image from every job you’ve shot, in order, chronologically, backwards, for the last twelve months.”

This is the most retarded thing I’ve read on here.

By this logic, you must show all of us a photo of every girl you’ve shagged since losing your virginity.

I bet there’s a few in there you wouldn’t be too proud of, would there?

Editing Rule #1: Never show your trash.
Editing Rule #2: Show only your best work.

Paolo Roversi’s portfolio, as a construction company photographer, Monday thru Friday:

http://tinyurl.com/22octx

Steven Meisel’s Monday-Friday job, (eek, uniforms!):

http://tinyurl.com/yu7xt2

And Sante D’Orazio’s little-known early work:

http://tinyurl.com/2fbh6z

(At least there were some women..)

—

i think if the truth were known, you’d find this to very common with commercial photographers. more than you’d think. much of the time, the jobs that you shoot that pay the bills are not pictures you’d want on your website. what’s that word? “Aspirational”. you want to show the stuff that you WANT to shoot; not the stuff that you’re actually shooting, for money.

would be interesting to pass a law: For commercial photographers, you must post one image from every job you’ve shot, in order, chronologically, backwards, for the last twelve months. you can’t just go in and cherry-pick all those Tests, and all those personal pictures, and all those freebie editorial jobs that you took “for your soul” — you’ve got to make your site in calendar form, and show at least one picture from every job that paid you money.

you might be surprised how many cans of peas on white seamless you’d find; how many CEO portraits; how many models on white cove; how many uncool pictures from so-called cool photographers.

http://www.aopdigital.com/Downloads/p13_sectionid/2/p13_fileid/8

amen.

btw – re. him/her. i had always presumed that APE was a her…

please!

STOP asking questions you could easily answer your self with a quick google search, reading a book, or on any one of the thousands of online photography forums.

and!

STOP writing comments you have the answer to, but ask anyway CONVENIENTLY leaving the url to your website
that happens to consist of unoriginal editorial/commercial photos you did for small time publications or business thinking that A Photo Editor will turn you into the next big thing over night.

WAKE UP! THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
IT JUST MAKES YOU LOOK REALLY BAD.

There is nothing wrong with being an “amateur”, or asking questions, and disagreeing with others. It’s just that when “amateurs” as well as “professionals” start pretending to be naive about their intentions and motives the quality of this wonderful site sinks.

Why should anyone here listen to or care about my pleas?

The information A Photo Editor shares out of his/her own free will is priceless, absolutely priceless insider information for anyone trying to get work or advance in this business(even if you are shooting for free building a solid book- Tokion, Fader, Spin etc…) You can’t buy most of this information in stores or schools and there is NO other site on the internet where a Photo Editor speaks so openly about the way it all works at this level.

I am no where close to being a “PRO” compared to A Photo Editor’s list of favorite photographers , but i have been in the photo and art worlds long enough to know when to call bull shit on lazy people who are selfishly slowing down the progress of something unique.

Just because you can ask or tell A Photo Editor anything doesn’t mean you should. Please respect the purpose of this site so we can all continue enjoying it.