Also regarding how marketing in local markets can differ financially to national or international markets: shipping books, sending promos overseas, making travel visits, long distance calls, and paying fees / expenses for trade fairs + source books are all the difference in marketing costs nationally, or internationally vs. locally. You can personally deliver a book, a promo, a coffee or have lunch much more inexpensively locally.

Also, just fyi in general for all: the Toronto Contact Photography Festival puts together a fairly strong cross section of International Reviewers and is another great place for people looking for feedback on their work.

Thanks all, Cheers,

Pam

I do turn down work but

In my region there are a lot of hotels, I enjoy shooting thier interiors and think I do a good job of it – but I would never pitch at Hilton or Marriot for a global campaign – im not that good at hotels

My biggest joy, however, is shooting exciting sports and the beautiful people and lifestyles that revolve around those sports

It seems that on one hand people critiquing my work are saying

‘to be seen as serious in this sports arena you must exclude your other work from your book/website’

While I meet locals with deep pockets who are saying

‘we didnt know you could shoot hotel lobbies so well – if we had known we would have hired you’

Peter would appear to be top of the game and can live from national clients I am sure

Its how to climb the ladder while running a business that pays mortages and funds folio shoots that seems harder to crack

Any comments on breaking this circle greatly appreciated – I think that is what was missing from Clays critique from LBDA…..

Comprehensive integrated marketing program? Yikes! It doesn’t have to be a $20,000 solid gold 3 karat campaign or nothing at all.

Costs a lot to build a book? Show the damn book! One’s book should never be static anyway, so damn the freaking torpedoes and send out a couple hundred promo cards, follow-up with an email promo, see who visits your web site, call them. Add more work to your book. Repeat in 3 months.

How much can that cost??

In Clay’s case, it’s getting more difficult to target and generate interest from the local market. I know where he’s coming from because I’m in the same market – and find it much easier to generate genuine interest and gigs from the large US agencies (and those in other parts of Canada) than I do here at home. Just because it’s your local market, does not mean it’s the most appropriate target – nor the only target.

And what about Clay’s reps…. just curious if they are focused exclusively on the local market.

Recall in the interview when they talked about target markets? It’s not that hard to learn which markets are easier to penetrate such as local magazines, local corporate portraits, local small agencies, etc. They’ll be more quantity than quality but it’s better than getting a night job.

Can we agree that you have an easier chance making a living with those? Cool. Could you even do weddings on the weekends? Of course – it’s good practice. Then start there but NEVER EVER forget your dream. Save for a comprehensively integrated marketing program for a year or two – once you have the cash, blast off. And all the time you’ve been waiting for blast off you’ve been workin’ that portfolio like that big national boy you want to become. But …. and here’s the trick … you were able to do it on the back of those local cash cows. Gradually you pick up one great job which allows you to do more marketing, then another, and another. Pretty soon your not taking calls from those agencies that treated you like crap.

Let’s be real, it cost money to build a book with the production values that will cause national clients to sit up an notice. It takes money to get those great images in front of the right people. Do you have a sugar daddy? Ever try to get a business loan with a Nikon D1x for collateral? How about that second mortgage on your Mom’s home? I actually know someone who did that – don’t ask how it turned out.

There is no short cut as far as I can tell; no clean answer. The best thing to do is keep fresh tires on your car but keep your eye on the horizon.

Seems to me that right now for Clay, word of mouth will be a significant factor in how fast, and on what scale, he makes a break for the big ad jobs.

If he devises a plan to market a great campaign internationally, the first dozen or so jobs he gets will either make or break his entire plan. Those [happy] clients will share their opinions, his vision will be visibly put out there in the market, and he can build on that same process to further his ideas and get even more new work. This is the snowball effect at it’s best. And it still works.

Clay seems to have a good head on his shoulders and from the consultation, it seems that he lacks the particular kind of confidence that comes from staying really busy shooting for terrific fees on dream jobs. He’ll get there soon enough with a more targeted approach.

To Sam (@17), and anyone else who feels their commercial work doesn’t mix with their personal work, I have to ask why it feels like you aren’t shooting what you’d like to be shooting?

If you ultimately feel that your work is divided between “paying the bills” and “aspiration” then you haven’t even begun to maximize your vision’s potential. *This is not a negative remark, it’s just an observation.

Personally, the only reason I will shoot a job I’m not into is if the fee suddenly makes me interested. Does that make sense? Basically, if you’re not feeling the assignment then it is your obligation as a photographer to say no. The client will especially appreciate that, regardless if they know why you turned it down.

Sam, respectfully, I believe your statement is what prevents a lot of photographers in Clay’s position from getting to the next level.

It’s not a one or the other situation (local or national campaigns). One can continue to work with local clients, while marketing nationally to begin the process of attracting national or international campaigns as well.

No VISA to work abroad? Clients can come to you. In many cases, this can actually be less expensive for them. Your own studio allows you to work better anyway. And you’d be surprised how many times creatives actually love to get out of the office for a few days. Don’t assume this is a liability. If the agency wants to work with you, then they’ll find a way to work with you. The key here is to change your mindset from working with the locals to working with the big boys/girls.

No money to market nationally? Sending 500 promos/emails locally is not very different or more expensive then sending them nationally.

Locals think you’re too busy and/or too expensive, or think you wouldn’t want to shoot certain jobs? That’s perfect! Because it means it’s time to move on to the next level. It means you’ve hit that point where your style is more specialized, your level of work and perception of your work & pricing by agencies is now more attractive and suitable for the more prestigious assignments.

Once you start landing a few of the more prestigious (national/US) clients, the locals that you’ve not worked with before (because they think you’re just the local yokel) will sit up and take notice and start considering you for the bigger assignments that they would otherwise give to photographers outside your area…. because it works both ways.

Cheers!

Maybe, taking ones website for example, one should just have two links

‘pictures that pay my bills’

‘my aspirational work’

Trouble is this double exposes one ‘dissing’ your current clientelle and telling the big shots that you are not qite as big as them !

He has a look that may hook big campaigns and high budget work

He is no doubt also a very competent commercial photographer and is scared of not advertising this but also sacred of advertising this !

He looses jobs because people think he is too busy or wouldnt do that type of work (the basic commercial shoots) but the big shoots are not coming in enough compensate this

Leslie punts a ‘go with your dreams/aim high’ philiosophy which is fine but it is Clay who has to pay his bills every month

Creating the balance between ‘general commercial ‘and ‘dream shoot’ seems a much finer path to tread especially for those more regionally based…

and clay, as always, you are amazing.

And yes, I’m the presenter on Marketing at the weekend events, and no, I don’t make more money if more of you show up. :-)

I hate giving this answer, but it’s true: it depends. If a photographer is just starting out but has a vision s/he really wants to get out there and is not sure how to go about it, then working with a consultant would probably be a great investment. But if the photographer is still shooting a lot of everything and doesn’t yet have a visual style of some sort, then the payoff may not be there. On the other hand, the right consultant (we each have our areas of strength and weakness so that’s why I say find the right one for YOU) might be able to help someone find that visual connection that has eluded the photographer, because s/he is too close to the work–the consultant could help define the photographer’s vision, in other words. But to be truthful, there are some photographers whose work just is not “there” yet. Though a consultant could say “do this” and “do that” the photographer won’t get much payoff working the steps without a strong visual foundation to start from.
As the saying goes, you can’t make butter with a toothpick. :-)
-Leslie

At what level does Leslie typically work with photographers? At one point in the conversation a generic photographer grossing 50k in a year was discussed as being a small figure.

I suspect that for many of us, especially just starting out, getting to 50k gross in a year would be fantastic – would it be worth it for a newbie photographer to seek consultation before reaching that point, or would it be financially impractical?

But yeah, excellent and well worth the 55 minutes!

Something Leslie mentioned near the end “We really like your work, but we don’t have anything that we think you’re right for, at the moment, but we’ll certainly keep you on file”… This happens with me a lot and, as Rob said, I don’t know how to weed through genuine response and the “Oh leave me alone; come back when you can shoot a good image” undertone, and I don’t have much patience when it comes to the whole “We’ll call you when something comes along”, I can’t help but think that this line is BS. To compound my feelings that people don’t think much of my work, expressed in this paragraph, I’ve had people say “Really like your stuff, I like your portraits, but we don’t have anything that fits your style at the moment, but do call/email me in a month or so, as we’re always getting new stuff in”… That to me says they’re genuinely interested.

Sorry for this long post, it won’t happen again, haha.

I don’t want to steal the fire from Leslie but another great source for consultations and info is Selina Maitreya and Port Authority (www.1portauthority.com). In fact, Selina and Leslie came through my city together on a lecture tour (that I unfortunately missed). Selina posts some worksheets on her site that are really helpful in keeping you focused. I also recommend her book “How to Succeed in Commercial Photography.” It forces you to really analyze the way you’re approaching the business and how to be more effective.