http://blog.photoshelter.com/2008/03/oh-craigslist-oh-tony-florez.html

Will magazines soon charge photographers for the right to be seen in their magazines?

Most people who have careeres and or jobs or a business are in it to make a profit, a living ???

I understand personal work and funding that. I understand the freedom of editorial or fashion ,when working for free. I understand the self promotion side of working for magazines for free and getting what amounts to personal work published.

The funny thing is when i did that stuff ,the free or self funded work. I had dealines ,people up my _ss wanting things a certain way.Bottom line it was a job a responsibility my name was on the work. I wasn’t out there to play I am serious about my job and work hard to get it!!

But when I showed my stuff to real people not photogs they always look at me like man your happen’n . Wow you must do really well . I can’t bring myself to say “well ya know I flew to LA rented cars, hotels, paid for my own food ect, all for the chance somebody will see this and give me a real paying job”

Don’t get me wrong it has worked out but much more often not.

My point to all of this is ,be honest ,if you had a choice to be paid what your worth or do something for self promotion what would you choose??

ps going to asmp was your first mistake. no wonder you are so pissy!

The flip side is when a magazine has you shoot for free. Or say they will pay photographers and never do. And then you see their shiny new ferrari on the internets….

http://www.thecobrasnake.com/partyphotos/wadmagazine/index.html

Anyway, I was a huge Chip Simons fan when I was a kid, and he was kicking ass all over the Editorial Landscape, everywhere you turned. I loved his inventiveness, and his humor.

A link below, on his luck turning bad. Also, make sure and read the BIO link too, it’s somewhat long but make it all the way to the bottom, where things sorta hang a left. Amazingly honest writing. Not sure I’d have the courage to put that on my site. Lots of commentary on the editorial business, and the impact of leaving NYC.

Anyway, I wish him, (and his family), the best.

http://tinyurl.com/yslepm

It was about 1994 I think when Deborah Needleman and David Armario were at MJ – Deborah called up with a three week canoe trip across the sub-arctic, boreal forset into Hudson’s bay near Churchill, Manitoba: “We can’t really pay your fee for the entire three weeks but if you want to think about it like a vacation you could take your girlfriend – and we’ll let you keep some really cool gear” – I’m still using the Northface mountail light jacket and pants, the tundra and pelican cases, the LLBean duckboots, the Northface sleeping bag; I can still get the wetsuit on – it’s just a little snug in the tummy!

But I should go back and see what the fee was; I’m sure it was at least 4K and they paid for every polaroid, every sheet of film, every c-print. The real story is that as with every economic transaction, it’s got to be mutually beneficial or it wouldn’t happen. If a photographer accepts a non-paying assignment or an assignment that they have to pay the expenses even, we all know that it’s not so much about desperation as it is about the passion for making images and getting the attention for having made them. Maybe we should just call these pay to play magazines “perpetrators of crimes of passion.”

I don’t think it’s useful or necessary for any of us to deride each other’s business judgment. There are as many different paths to success as there are different photographers. We all have different opportunities, needs and aspirations. The marketplace really does take care of those who engage in unwise business practices, but it’s way beyond me (or any of us, I think) to define what constitutes an unwise practice for someone else.

Personally, my hat’s off to kristiina and others like her who find a way to do photography that they love and build a successful business at the same time.

No fee is for the desperate or uneducated! Hope this clears things for you @90!

PS sorry if this has any misspelled words, I’m on my iPhone and I could not contain myself!!

I mean jesus, when is it time to start making a living? What happens when you want to retire and have not a cent saved??
(I guess this is why I started backwards, commerce first, then editorial if I can find the time…)
I’m serious, people in this industry must get older and start getting scared about what happens when the jobs start drying up and their bank account has cobwebs only.

andy,

no one is denying that we all love editorial. it is the very best. to get on a plane, with a bag over your shoulder, and be assigned to meet some kook in some outlying town — now that is living, at least in my book.

yet, with the best also comes some of the worst. at least from a business perspective. i remember being a young photographer, and joining asmp, and going to those business seminars, and trying to learn to “do things the right way”, rather than “the desperate photographer way”. you’d go there, and you’d learn tons of great information, and then you’d come back, and then be slapped in the face with the editorial business model, which is, basically, “how long can you shoot editorial before you go broke”.

you’d learn in these seminars to “always get an advance”, and then, you’d try that one on the picture editor, and you’d get that deafening silence. “well, we usually pay in sixty days”.

my position on editorial is that you’ve got to just close your eyes, not think about any of the business issues, open your mouth, and prepare to swallow. that’s the only way to feel good about the business side of editorial.

what’s always hidden in the editorial equation, also, is the sentence that’s in fine print, “well, there will always be that big ad job that’ll justify me shooting this editorial job”. but what about all of those guys that ONLY do editorial, and have no interest or desire in advertising? what do they do?

that’s why this low-fee or no-fee editorial gets under my skin so much. that’s why the whole “kristiina with no fee” feels so much like peeing in the pool, soiling it for other photographers. (or maybe this is just jesus’ way of thinning out the herd? sooner or later, the weaker ones will always die off?)

yes, of course, we all love editorial. but it just seems they’ve squeezed every last ounce out of the business incentive, (unless you’re chasing Britney).

If an photo editor is going to offer you a wonderful shoot in some amazing place or allow you to shoot your story idea, BUT cannot pay your regular day rate we would STILL all jump on the chance.

Where it gets weird is when magazines expect you to fund the the shoot. That means no fees, allowing invoices to stay unpaid for 120 days, etc. That is the real crux of this whole issue IMO!

Huge pool of desperate ‘photographers’ (trust fund kids and weekend warriors) who know no better. They’re taking advice from all these self-appointed industry experts and throwing their money at them too.

Its “pop idol” for photographers.

Sad…..very sad

PP

I am going backwards – -started out shooting a lot of commerce, and now am trying to shoot some editorial to expand my client base and have some more fun. My shoots for myself/tests have always cost next to nothing (maybe $100?), but am now going to Paris next month to shoot, so this one will be more costly I guess. But still, some of the most talked about images in my book have been shot for free. (model, stylists, hair&make up, locations free…) like the airport ones on my site (on the “I’m Gone” link.)
Also whenever I am shooting a 1/2 day and I know the model is booked for a while day, I make some advance calls to get stylist/makeup/whatever there so we can make use of the afternoon and hopefully pull off something great with the free model time.
Hopefully I’ll be able to keep shooting on the cheap while pushing my editorial stuff.