Rob: I could never be thankful enough to you for writing this blog FOR FREE, without making a single penny out of it. Even if you were a millionaire with more money you can count, keeping this blog as useful as you do would really tell a lot about yourself and your commitment with the industry. I don’t think there’s anybody so stupid to work that hard only to feed his ego.
All my support and a big big thank you from a photographer from Madrid, Spain currently getting ready and planning to take the big scary jump to the professional world. You, Heather, Leslie and a couple more folks are making it much easier and less frightening.

Rob : keep posting your opinions, thoughts, views on your own blog.

Everyone Else : Choose to read or choose to not read Rob’s opinions , thoughts, views on his blog. And if you choose to comment, don’t be a douche. If someone’s a douche to you, suck it up.

::sigh::
The beauty of the internets. I love me this series of tubes!

Rob, keep up the awesome blog man, much appreciated.

Rocksteady,
Danno~

Thus apart from conspiracy theories, how long will this wagon storms ahead until in becomes undone? The the S:N Ratio is already way too high now and info are not relevent any longer.

@ itdoesntmatter: Good going, there is a whole wild world out there. Dig your heels in face the world with an attitude perfect for no on board pasengers!

@ Mecedes B: It takes a woman of your stand to make your point. Hard work over years don’t leave to much space for vain feelings to be accommodated.

Let us all get out of there and get a life. There are enough Cyber ptrotection for every one to wipe his feet.

to commenters:

i need to make one thing absolutely concrete: i never never never never impersonated thomas, not once, nor did i ever intend to.

i dont even really understand or know where rob got that or where anyone else did either, i can only assume its writing weirdness or contextual. i said whatever i said about mrs thomas because i thought she hit a couple nails on the head, while others i think she missed completely. i said what i said about thomas’ work because i believe it.

i am baffled why anyone thought or thinks i am thomas. i truly got into this mess 100% on my own. i would never want to f*ck up a career or reputation of another photographer and i only meant to call rob out on a few topics, not damage him in any way either. my own career i seem comfortable destroying here in front of you all for your entertainment, but not anyone else’s.

comments like, ‘wow, you’re bitter, you don’t work much do you’ etc added what to this exactly? comment smart, comment dumb, just add a point of view, my comments were misguided, but i had a point at least.

i swore off a creative? ok, by that rational, i should lie, cheat and compromise everything i feel i am to work for absolutely anyone at all costs? i am sure that is a true road to fortune, but i am not yet comfortable with that. while i am not as successful as i desire and that everything i am saying here will likely haunt me forever. i do actually have some self respect and moments of success, just because someone is in a position to hire me, doesn’t mean i should bend over to work for them if i don’t respect them or think they aren’t playing fair. i have made mistakes to creatives and i have had creatives do dumb (and illegal, with lawyers to prove it) things to me. if i don’t respect myself, no one will.

i don’t play well with others, you’re right, i don’t, neither do you or you wouldn’t have commented at all. that’s the only smart thing for any of us in this anymore. or see #103. regardless of what i said or how i said it, did rob play well for addressing all this at all, the comments he engaged with back or for tracking down my home address and telling me he knows who i am after he cherished his own anon, is that playing well? everyone here thinks so, i don’t. i get it, i am alone on this. is this really that a big deal anymore, no, it’s a spat about meta and everyone acts like i ripped a picture of the pope in half on live tv.

i’d rather have a spat with rob then continue living/working in fear of what a creative really thinks or feels all the time. despite how badly i screwed up here, as of today, i feel learned some things, even if rob thinks less of me and no one learned anything except i am a fool.

to those that compare a stupid blog spat to chip’s experience and creating a buzz word of ‘pulling a chip’, you are not looking at the larger picture and frankly i find calling my spat with rob and the stupid things i said a ‘chip’ a little f*cked up. how many times was i called a chip, i even referred to it in pushing all those buttons. no one here can possibly relate to what chip went through, to build a successful career and see it fall apart at the same time your marriage fails, you see your kids less and are left to start over in a brutal career that often treats you as exchangeable and disposable has got to be one of the most painful and lonely things i can imagine. having it be the new buzz word and treated as a joke cannot feel good either. we all f*ck up, more then once, even creatives. while i think professionally speaking things should of been handled differently and that i needed to stop here after my rude post #4 (or never made it), i have to admit i respect chip now more then i did while he was a success. i think we can all find parts of us that relate to chip in one way or another. the truth is brutal in this business, at least some layout it out there, have more courage then i do and don’t hide it in revolving door politics of please hire me now. even creatives say ‘don’t be an a-hole, but we hire a-holes if they are right for the job’, everything is a circle.

to those more obsessed with who i am then what i say:

when rob started this, it wasn’t rob, he was anonymous, why does everyone forget this. did you call him a coward then, or did you understand why he did it? i don’t recall him being called a coward. if rob was still at MJ, would he still be anon, i don’t know.

if memory serves, rob didn’t reveal himself till he was no longer a PE. is that brave or is that cowardice or is that smart business? i don’t know. i do know that in this very section of comments, rob has said he feels “fkd” because old editors now read his blog and he knows it. i can relate to that on a new level today. i stated before i didn’t think rob would intentionally trash me to my clients or elsewhere, just not hire me himself, because we had a blog spat but i really don’t know. “fkd” is not a nice feeling.

i do know that those who knew who rob was before the unveiling kept it a pretty good secret, will i get the same because everyone thinks i am wrong, i don’t know and by no means is this even really about me as i am not the enigma rob has created for himself.

i would hope that an anon commenter could expect to receive the same respect on a blog founded in anonymity, if not for the thoughts themselves as many do not always deserve respect (most of mine included), but for the anonymity itself. i would hope a photographer would take his job as seriously as an employee of a major publishing company, maybe i am wrong.

this blog was started anon, yet does not accept anon, i never tracked rob down back then and said i know who you are, yet rob ended up doing that to me, so what should i say or feel? so yeah, i called BS (or hypocrisy or irony or choose a word) on rob tracking me down with meta when he felt so very violated by this meta that he made in this original post.

someone out there knows who AVS is, would you think it wrong to email AVS and say, ‘i know who you are, i tracked you down using meta, i have your home address.’ my opinion is that wouldn’t be cool, nor to do so and then post somewhere about it. yet that’s exactly what rob did in all these comments to me, maybe a commenter doesn’t warrant what a site owner does, i dunno.

to rob:

was me being a jerk from the comment #4 and on a grand conspiracy of any kind? no, it was not.

after the first one, i realized who i was would be tracked because i was obviously pissed off and likely in need of moderation. after reading my off the cuff stupid comment again. i knew i made a mistake. so i pushed harder to prove my ID could be discovered by sarcasm and points i knew would get under the skin. am i lying, no. was it stupid, yes, would i do it again, no, do i regret it, yes, was my ID discovered, it was. did rob use the very technology he called creepy to find me, yes he did. 

i think any site that openly tracks and shares all hit counts, ip address of visitors and other info so openly on their front page is done in vanity and i would consider them attention whores as well so i should of made that clearer as in it’s not just rob, i shouldn’t have singled him out. yes, i realize for it to be free, you need to display the logo, but other then vanity i don’t see the point in having this public, it’s $7 a month to have it private, that isn’t hard, when i use to use it, $7 was enough to keep my vanity out of the picture and i think its distracting bells and whistles on an otherwise good site. i could easily put the email address of every creative i send my emails to and their track through results online, but i don’t, i see it as bragging, and i don’t see how having any of this information public matters, it’s all vanity, i see no meta of this type or sitemeters being relevant to the goal of your site in the larger picture, or at least in the publics eye. is it all important to the emailer or site holder, hell yes, is it important to share it, no.

tracking emails and site navigation is vital, it just doesn’t need to be public, its vanity and creepy to share it, i see rob using/sharing it and crying foul at the same time, so i had issue. i called BS. that was all that really happen when you clear away the BS of the last 48h.

so to see rob complain and be creeped out by the very technology he openly embraced, yeah, it pissed me off. i get that we won’t agree on this, but i still cannot see it any other way.

i don’t think the comment after mine explained the differences in any justifiable way either, the info isn’t as innocuous as the commenter implied, commenting on other comments is infuriating and non stop circles (you could easily get 100+ comments). to me, much of this post was the same as rob running into a theater and crying fire, then watching and taking notes on how everyone reacts to put it out or run away, with no solution offered of by rob, continue to email him or not? i still have no idea to this very moment. 3/4 of the 100+ comments are pointless chime-ins in efforts for other anons to feel included and other pointless name drops in robs defense to boost themselves to others, not because i believe they actually care or even read the comments, most had nothing to offer at all.

do i see a hypocrisy/irony in the way meta is used, that rob used, hell yes. do i find the tidbit comments of how it isn’t the same worthwhile to my points, not in the slightest.

rob said its the same as counting cars driving by your house in one of our emails, yes, i agree. rob then said choosing to follow those cars home is another, yes, i agree. so rob asked why group him in with those that use the meta to do this? well, sitemeter does, even if he’s not looking at all that meta on each visitor, i can look at it through the link on rob’s site, he is allowing me to follow them home, even if he doesn’t. that was the point.

while i don’t care in the larger picture that i am tracked or even that rob discovered my identity (to the point of my home address), what does bother me is that no one here, including rob, thinks its creepy, funny, ironic that an anon poster got discovered and tracked down by rob (who once cherished his anon) using the same tools he claimed to despise in this original post, i still have to call BS (as politely and non personal attackingly as i can) on rob being creeped out by these tools ever again.

and that was my only point, clouded in my drama.

i wasn’t trying to vent against the PE profession. i was trying to point out the flip flops and how some things he appears to believe are okay for him to do aren’t for photographers to do. even if he’s not a photographer, many of the site tools are the same.

for every photo director that won’t comment, there are 100-200 photogs that don’t commenter either. it does suck, did i help the situation, hell no. oops. yet i do like when rob interviews someone, i just cannot see blog comments as the vehicle for this vision of dialogue with creatives, robs expectations are higher then mine and that i consider a good thing.

as for me calling BS on robs contributor picture after railing photogs for theirs, in our email he addressed this one for the first time. 

rob told me, ’since i am not a photographer violating my own ideas about how photographers should behave to get jobs is a moot point.’ ‘i don’t have to follow my own advice and it’s not hypocrisy because i’m a photo editor.’ i am glad rob asked or brought this up, i will try to have dialogue on it without being an ass this time.

i think this hit the nail on the head for me to read. if there is a calm non bitter sounding way to call BS on this any louder yet in a nice respectful way, i would like to. maybe the phrase ‘i call BS’ is read as more hostile then intended, i thought it was clever and almost kinda funny when in a blog spat, maybe i am wrong.

i think this explains a lot about how photographers feel about PE’s and any other creative in a position of power over a photographer and even how PE feel about photographers. it clears things up for my little mind at least. anyone that says do as i say not as i do seems like a grumpy parent. this is my perception, by the nature of your job as PE, it is implied that your judgement and evaluation of what constitutes a ‘good’ or otherwise ’successful’ photograph is higher then that of the average joe editor, writer, creative director and even over photographers. thus when it’s our turn to see an image you choose to represent yourself and your endeavor, we expect greatness. PE’s are in a position by the nature of the job itself to judge quality of images, that’s the job as i see it. so to throw up a crappy picture of yourself after railing photographer’s for doing so, i still have an issue with even after this explanation, setting a bar high for us and low for yourself i just cannot get, yet you’re right it doesn’t mater, but i set the bar high for you as judging quality is a major component of your job. maybe your point was humor and i missed it. this why i brought up the contributor image in the first place.

you’re right, you will not get hired or fired over your contributor image, will we, who knows, we are already in if a contributor image is in the works anyway. as a staff PE, you are more likely to be required to have a contributor image then a freelancer on any sort of regular basis. also, most mags that do this are few and far between. 

many of my clients simply don’t do contributor images, the few times i was asked, i supplied options, all of which i thought were beautiful or beautifully funny or absurd. yet simply sending in a glamour shot of myself, will not make a magazine decide to do a contributor image. the one good thing from your post i did learn was that if the magazine does do these, send one image of myself in on every job i ever do, i don’t recall you saying that, but that is what your post taught me. well that and make myself so beautiful or funny, they have to at least notice. i have a contributor image due out soon, i am dying to see it. did i find it funny i got asked for a contributor image not really too long after rob’s post, hell yes.

i am as shocked at all of this as all of you and i am involved and the instigator, i think the whole thing is dumber then all of you do and i am stopping. rob called me out in our emails and was correct to do so in that every item where i had a major issue, others do it too, not just rob, so why single him out or make it too personal. rob, i never lied about anything here and while not backpedalling, i am sorry, i didn’t mean to attack you personally, i went after what i believe were valid issues i had with you on this site, i went about it poorly and did not intend to make it all so personal or bitter, lesson learned. this does mean i don’t stand by many of my points even if you agree with them or not. i only exchanged a few emails with rob, but have much respect for him for even dealing with any of this, calmly and smooth even. wow.

look at this, 100+ comments, everyone freaking out and overwhelmingly entertained. all other blogs a buzz, damn, why has no one asked if me and rob did this on purpose for attention since the conspiracy theories are so rampant? rob, you have my address, send the check? sarcasm and fighting seem to be circus draw on this one to the point all actual thoughts are lost. the hits must spike by like a 10,000 every time i comment. wow.

Funny how when a PE gives his opinions about emailers and promos that photographers get so butt hurt. Its not like Rob punched your mama in the face or something.

We are (I hope) creating art. Then you simply be yourself 100% and show it to those that work with artists. They either are or are not going to like what we do.

If they do they hire us, we make great photographs and make our clients jobs easier in the process.

If they don’t hire us they don’t. If they think we are creepy they think we are creepy.

We all need to have a little fun here and chill out. Stop making this shit heavy. We’re not saving the earth here.

All this anger and negative attitudes right after 420 is quite disappointing.

Stop bitching and crying, go get your camera and make the best photos of your lives.

The only person that can stop you is you.

+ I wanted to be the 100th comment.

C’mon folks… don’t be afraid to be a little nicer to each other.
JG

Ahh, hmm, um… A fascinating question really. I don’t happen to have the answer? – But I know what it means to me, and I don’t give a fuck what mine means to you…yeah! 

No, no, no, now, let’s try that again… My blog is a personal forum I hope you read daily – I invite you to share my musings, look at pictures of my son and flowers, hear me wax about the professional photography industry and assume based on my intonation and prose that I maybe hold grudges, slept with your roommate, or have a foot-fetish… 

One more time, but maybe stay the course… My blog is a form of therapy – a way to keep off the couch. It’s also an alter-ego, I’m shy, you know. The time I take to formulate my opinions and posts keep me from inserting my foot in my mouth sometimes, too. It’s my therapist, my stage, my editor and my confessional…

Eh, try again, one last time…My blog is a place I can publish myself without censorship. I can post images of what I want in real time, without an editor or AD breathing down my neck. I can release my day or journey when I feel alone, or when I feel surrounded and need silence. I can dispel misinformation, or playfully impart my own. My god, my mom and my wife, they can all glare, shake their head and disapprove –  it doesn’t matter – snicker or smile, this shit is mine. My bed, I lay in it, right. It’s a chance to be everything I am, as well as some things I am not, (yet). I set out to share. My goal, to afford all of you the information you need to make informed decisions, as friends, as colleagues, clients – as people, but only in re: to this author, this blog. Vulnerability and knowledge is power… 

I suppose, it too can be half-real and half-show. You watch TV, right? Movies? Well, the critics that critique, they publish their words with their real names. If you comment, esp if it’s negative, step the fuck up – if you can read and form opinions, and choose to do so here, own them. That’s the part that makes this all worth it. Exposure. It’s not just about getting your name out there, but your thoughts too. Who are you? Who am I? I’m asking, all the time.  

A blog is an ugly word for “my selfishly created URL of opinions and interests.” If you don’t like them, agree with them or care to take part in the life-spying reality show that is blog-land, then peace the fuck out. I’m disgusted to read the recent comments section on fellow bloggers site A Photo Editor. The majority of comments regarding an honest post by APE author Rob Haggart were riddled with contempt, deceit and (anonymous) judgments. I always assumed his readers understood and accepted the format and his ego, knowledge, just entitlement and frankly, thoughtfulness.  The format (for the most part), is look-at-me-look-at-me – but why wouldn’t you look at him? You already do for Christs sake, and you know why too. If you forgot, I’ll remind you – He’s not afraid. He’s not a pussy like the rest of the majority. He took a chance. He jumped. He made himself vulnerable. That scares the shit out of people. It certainly has in my experiences. 

Blogs are created with selfishness, and yet there are countless blogs that are selfless too – discern between the two carefully before your cowardice leads you to anonymously comment with hatred, resent or jealously. High school sucked from what I remember, and, I was one of the popular ones, too. Grow up, and leave a name when you do. 

“All emails are confidential. I may answer your question on the blog but will not reveal your identity.”

in the same spirit of the quote above, i will not share APE’s email to me, but i will share my response on the blog.

i received an email at 2:12 AM EST on 4/22/08 from APE.

omg, dude, seriously? look at the tone of how you wrote me this morning? and you wonder why i called you out?

of course it was me, it was no large secret. if my writing style (to those that read me) wasn’t obvious enough, there are all kinds of ways to know, i used the same phrases, punctuation and writing styles in efforts to be known, maybe i assume too much, but i got plenty of emails asking if it was me yesterday… never mind the technological ways to find me, you obviously know how to use those, you found the mailing address of an anon commenter, yet you seem really upset about the very technology that allowed you to do so. i call BS.

all that original guy you wrote about did, was see that you visited his site, he knew who you were, you knew who he was. look what you’ve done, you tracked down an anonymous commenters home address over the internet, which is creepier? shit man, you used all that same technology to find my actual physical home address, so come knock on my door, i can buy you a beer or we can rumble….. what next, what now?

how would you have felt if i had done all that to you while you were anon? you would of been scared about how you were perceived at your job, just like i am and other photogs i hear talk about you all the time are. i hear the same things about you at every party and every conversation i have, yet everyone is too scared about their jobs/reputation/income to say anything, no one wants to look like poor chip. i made no effort to discover who you were when you were anon, i don’t know if other people used technology to find you out or not, i didn’t know it was you till the day i read you say, ‘this is me.’ calling out an anon commenter, when you had the most well known and successful anon thing going? you don’t expect me to see the hypocrisy in this?

you act all violated because you got an email. i still cannot tell if you don’t like tracking or the fact you get emails at all. even after all this back and forth BS, i still cannot tell. yes, i have sent you email promotion, yes, i saw you looked, did i email you, call you and tell you? no. did you ask to be removed, block my future emails or respond to me in any way at all? no. so how am i suppose to know how you feel? in the original post on this, you gave no indication of if you want to continue to receive these emails or not. how am i or any other photographer suppose to know to remove you or continue sharing? you looked at what i sent you, you downloaded/viewed a site, you saw my name on the email, you saw a picture, you had every opportunity to hit delete or remove from list if you don’t like what you see, but you looked, why would i know to remove you?

to be upset at the tools is ridiculous, be upset at the the guy that made you uncomfortable, not the technology. sitemeter tracks an absurd amount of data on every visitor, just like an email does, so don’t call people out for sending you emails they think you may enjoy, simply because they can see if you looked or not, how they choose to use the info is up them, the same way you have the ability to use all the sitemeter meta for any deed you want, that you choose not to use it is your choice, be mad at the way the info gets used, not the info itself. if you are this upset, take sitemeter off.

cyberstalking is scary technology to be sure, in this case the guy letting you know he saw was awkward, but much of how i perceived your reaction is how i find it the same as hating all photographers because some a-hole with a camera stalks britney.

i regret that what started out as a humorous attempt to needle you to prove a point obviously hurt your feelings so badly and blew up into hostility in both directions. this is a business were thick skin is required, if a photographer was so hurt this easily they wouldn’t get anywhere, i still have an agency note on my wall calling my work weak, not a note from a PE, an agency letterhead critique in an interoffice memo, if i let that bother me, i’d be flipping burgers.

my intentions were not to hurt your feelings or be disrespectful, just get my thoughts on your radar. i read every post you write, if i thought you weren’t intelligent, i wouldn’t read it everyday, the world is too interesting and there are too many wonderful things to see online to waste time on anyones site you don’t enjoy.

if i thought it would resort to you comparing me to a chip simons level of experience because i commented on your blog, writing me off as some bitter idiot, “don’t like don’t read it” attitude i wouldn’t have bothered to attempt a dialogue here at all. i thought that was the goal of APE or maybe i went about it in too aggressive a way, i just didn’t want to see another valid comment glossed over and unaddressed.

if you want to say whatever you want without consequence or outside ideas that may or may not jive with yours, turn off your comments, if you find all this entertaining, worthwhile conversation and/or driving up your traffic, leave them on.

i have no idea what thomas, mrs thomas or TA are up too, while i know who they are obviously, i am on my own, conspiracy theories are however funny, incorrect.

i like thomas, i read his blog every post, i think a lot of his work is very smart and going in directions i would love to see more of, but i have to call BS on him too for complaining about $, while driving a lexus around shooting 8×10 film at whatever $$$ cost per sheet/processing/contacting, etc. i look up to his success and he may or may not even realize he does actually have some.

it would seem disagreeing with rob may have led to career suicide in this case and i should know better then to never comment, that’s kinda the phenomenon that is APE, the sheep are silent to this shepherd with their real feelings left to be muttered about in private emails and dark corners at parties.

rob knows who i am and i know he knows, what’s next, do i expect rob to call all my clients and shit talk me, tell them to never hire me or otherwise bad talk me at parties in dark corners and private emails? no, i don’t suspect he will, i hope not, but who knows right? the false carrot of hope or disaster is always present, that’s the rub in this business. i suspect he would never hire me, but not intentially trash me and i can sacrifice that for this conversation. he didn’t hire me at outside, he didn’t hire me at MJ, but i never stopped trying.

so until i hear otherwise, and back on point, i will still send him my emails, he looked, he must enjoy on some level? right?

i also must call BS on all those photographers saying shit in private emails and dark corners at parties, this is the place, share those thoughts, or keep them to yourself.

i just think the right to occasionally call BS on anyone is an important thing sometimes in this business, even if the generosity, intelligence and spirit on this site are otherwise alive and well.

i just spent 2 days of my life with this, contrary to how it may seem and whatever everyone here (including rob) thinks, i like this site, i read it everyday, i want to see what comes next. i do regret being thought of as such an ass, being overly aggressive or whatever, i really was just calling BS on one small detail.

so rob, you know where i live, come over, i want to take your portrait. yes, i will buy you a beer or rumble, it’s your call……………

* If you’re not tracking your email blast responses, you’re stupid (Sorry APE. In another life, I was a web marketing consultant — the data you can get tracking email blasts really is very useful and free).

* If you’re telling the photo editor that you’re tracking them, you’re stupid. (A valuable insight from APE).

I do think it shows a sign of weakness when rather than engage in debate you began you casually suggest dissenters find another place to vent their frustration. You invite such vitriol with your asinine comments on the business of finding work. I reiterate something I said in an earlier posting and that is you are privileged to have security in employment. I’ve been working for 20 years and I still fear that I will never be asked to do another job again, sad but true. However I ameliorate this with two strategies, the first is I do as much ‘personal’ work as family life will allow and secondly I create strategies for finding ‘bread & butter’ assignments, and one of those might be finding out who has recently visited my website. I should point out that I don’t pursue any visitor to my website, I attempt to stay as far from a ‘puter screen as possible, photography has become all to ‘puter centric when what I really like is to keep things a simple as possible….to be out on crisp mornings, listening to the birds, camera on tri-pod, waiting…Anyway I digress. I thought both Mercedes and Thomas’ posts were perfectly reasonable comments in response to your statement though I will concede that ‘Shouty’ emails are not the approach I would take. Each unto their own. The irony of all this is that I Googled Thomas’s website and really loved the images and if I were a phot-editor I’d give him an assignment without hesitation. Please remember that if you can ‘hand it out’ you ought to be able to ‘receive it’, graciously. And if you want ‘creepy’ I give you Guantanamo Bay and Extraordinary Rendition, why don’t you do a story on that?

Have you got hold of a copy of ‘The Nirvana Blues’ by John Nichols yet?

Cheers Jonathan Olley

Give Rob a break.

He writes from the heart, usually unvarnished and like all of us changes his mind on the day, week, month and year.

He’s right about being stalked, cause it’s just bloody creepy to see whose looking at your site. I check my stats to see how many hits but would NEVER want to know who was actually looking and clicking through becuase that doesn’t mean a thing and if it did I don’t have time to care.

People that like your work will get in touch with you and people that like your work enough to hire you will be glad to meet.

It’s really that simple.

Still, this is the only blog I know on the web that not only gives out a lot of real inside information, but even enlisted us to apply for a free promotion, so if tomorrow Rob charges $50 a head to continue reading his articles It would still be worth it, as long as he doesn’t buckle under pressure and start writing every article like it’s a press release for PDN.

JR

I mean no harm by doing this, just makes me wonder who is writing what.