An honorable person with a differing political view could have chosen a much more productive and respectful course of action given her unique opportunity. How about behaving like an actual human being and actually having a discussion with him about her views?

I see the art in this situation, but it has nothing to do with “the artist’s” intent, despite the best efforts of some of you here to claim that this was somehow part of her master plan. The art is in how the human condition can still sustain in reasonable equilibrium and peace despite the juvenile, self promoting, self indulgent and self centered acts of one human being without consideration of the consequences those acts have on another human being.

It seems appropriate and even telling, that in one of her “works” she depicts that monkey shitting on him – because that is effectively what she did, and some of you call it art. I suppose that would make her the monkey – art imitating life or vice versa?

I found this blog because I heard JM’s daughter mention this on TV tonight as something that deeply hurt her.

Ms. Greenberg either feels no remorse, or is just happy, like a child, to retreat into a world where she does not have to face her failures or mistakes. Blame the magazine, blame McCain, blame conservatives – what about the person who actually planned and executed the deception of another human being and the defacing of his image?

Perhaps she, and the others who condone her actions should consider the sequence of events that might have unfolded had this been a country where our personal liberties weren’t as important and as protected. One of the few important responsibilities we have as citizens which we are implicitly required to return, is to respect the liberties of our other fellow citizens. In all honesty, can you believe that she respected the liberties of John McCain?

I suppose the fact that he is a conservative (although not from where I’m standing) makes it OK to do just about anything to him – doesn’t it? Shit on him. That’s what this country is about right?

It is encouraging to see that many people here have been able to see through their political leanings, and engage in an honest and fair assessment of this situation, in essence practicing their citizenship in a professional manner despite their differing views. If Jill Greenberg had done the same, perhaps her career and her personal development could have actually benefited from this experience and perhaps a candidate for president might have even left her with a slightly broader and possibly better perspective than he had before he met her.

Did you really gain Jill?

As I said: I am done with you Debra… Now you play nice and let people voice their opinions with out attacking their character.

@246 – Ben – seriously – you have way too much time on your hands and you do appear to be rather delusional.

I guess anyone can write whatever they want when they don’t have the balls to use their real and complete name.

I guess anyone can write whatever they want when they don’t have balls to use their real and complete name.

It seems that you maneuvered yourself in a flanking position to try and destroy anyone who understands proven professionalism and a proper code of business ethic. It became apparent, to me, that you enjoyed and wanted to publicly humiliate them and embarrass them through your numerous personal attacks, even on their character. You claimed that one persons grammar skills are an international embarrassment to you, or am I just spinning the documentation (from above an all over this thread) again? I was surprised that you did not attack mine but if you follow the progression, of my queries, you may gain an insight of how you lost sheltered guard with me; exposure is the reward of a carefully planned probe. Be careful now, you may note that people are smarter than you give them credit for. Many are able to read the exact words written from you, you left a long documented trail Debra, or would you just rather have each person ,that you have attacked, repost your quotes to them?

I was growing tired of trying to unfry your eggs and see now that we have to deal with the birds. So, which will you be, the Goose or the Gander? Doesn’t really matter, as I understand one is just as good as the other. Funny how you feel that we should somehow feel badly because you now feel offended. Also, that entry-level PR attempt, of distraction, was an insult to our intelligence: Why would you solicit someone’s technique on this blog and in this topic, when you just left his or her site, forget how to email? I could not watch as your arrogance continued to glow, I felt that your hate-laden vision may have set influential photographers up for destroying their careers. It became apparent, to me, that your hatred for people is so strong that you don’t mind using other’s to serve as mindless warriors, perhaps to help settle personal potential agendas full of collateral externalities. You placed yourself in the roll of an ordained Shepherd and attacked proper professional standards and professional ethics, of which others in this thread tried to share. Of course, you treasure your knowledge so much that you feel your audience is made up of low IQ’s and short-term memory. Huge mistake, perhaps you should seek wisdom as knowledge may fail you.

I thought that you had a grasp of Sun Tzu but I see now that you have no idea. I love Chess and thought that you may be entertaining but I see now that you were only playing checkers. I am growing bored with you now but due to the fact that you followed my lead, like a little puppet, this is what I think the real story may be. Your hatred is so strong that I am not sure that you might have proper restraint and that you may sacrifice anyone at anytime. At times, I cannot tell if I am talking with you or JG, doesn’t matter as there seems there may possibly be a bit of this terrible international story missing. Remember the part about the person that yells the loudest normally has the most to hide? Well, you made it well known that you and JG are great friends and you continued on this path of expert in knowing all of her thoughts. Due to an enormous amount of insults and personal attacks on others, from you, I have to merit the fact that you know JGs thought’s so well (your supplements and not mine). It seems to further reinforce something that Casey wondered. You know, the part that you did not like; about JG being used and then abandoned.

So, since you know all of JGs thoughts and evidently you two talk to each other about everything. I have one last question for you: Were you involved in the preplanning of this deceitful act towards the client? If so, how much preplanning did you do? I am not suggesting that you are, I would like to better understand how one could have so much hate that they would advise commingled deceit with professionalism…

I am done with you Debra, I have more intelligent matters to attend to and I have lost interest as you started pouting over a treatment towards you, one that is very tame when compared to your treatment towards others.

You are a great person Jodi and you ethics are wonderful. I am proud to know that you are amongst the next generation of professional photographers!! my best wishes to you

As it stands I think it looks like a dead tie between Deb and Ben. Jodi, you are slipping in the polls and you might take the cue from JM’s camp and pull out to save face.

@232 Ben. Thanks for sticking up for me, your response was much more intelligent than mine would have been, as I am still at the bottom of the very long ladder where JG seems to be at!

I do have some comments and opinions to report back, some will call it chit chat and that’s just fine by me. I am hoping that people wasting their time on these blogs at least speak the truth! I do, and if others wish to discount my information, because I am an assistant, so be it.

I freelanced with yet another photographer for 2 days, I think I was his 3rd assistant! That must be really bottom of the food chain! Anyway, the photographer, art buyer, art director, all discussed this blog over lunch! and it wasn’t the politics that they were discussing, it was JG using her professional privilege and access to mock her client and subject in the way that she did, was what everyone there was against…… Client, said quite clearly, as a fortune 500 company they would not use her, as they would not use any athlete, actor who had offended the public in any %…. It would just be bad PR for them…..

I did stick my neck out a little and asked the AB to go on the blog and say something, no one seemed to have the time! I think this is mostly being read by photographers, assistants and in some cases their agents….. I don’t think anyone out side of a very small group of people really care about any of this. Except when and if they have to hire JG, they will have to see what the backlash would be to their business!

I do object to death threats towards her and her family, except, as many don’t think I am qualified to give an opinion, I would like to read a police report, as I don’t believe that it’s true….. I think it’s just spin…..maybe by the art world to increase the price of her photographs!

One final word, this discussion, I think should be about JG’s professionalism, and her abuse of access, complete disregard for her client. Her mocking and condescending statements towards JM, after having tricked him into posing for pictures with a fake lighting set-up. Everyone knows who JM is, and there are enough reporters out there telling us who JM and Obama are…. We don’t need JG to tell us, unless she has the courage to do so by arranging her own sitting with him! Or by lining up with the Paparazzi to catch him in a bad light!

This is about JG, and her ethics as a photographer, to what lengths she would go to, to get her pictures, and it’s very telling as to what sort of a person she is. Please don’t tell me for a minute that JG is a GOOD PERSON! Because her actions in this case have proved to me she is not, and don’t say this is not about her! She has made it about herself and therefore given everyone the right to an opinion about her!

I am a democrat, and feel embarrassed that she is one of us….. I’ll bet anyone out there, that even Obama won’t be photographed standing next to her! His handlers will whisk him away!!!! It will be bad bad PR for him too!

Following one’s career and being aware of their voting record is a far cry from one being an “authority”. More twisting. Call me silly, but I’m kind of offended and just have a hard time warming up to anyone that would not only limit, but eliminate the rights of myself and others. His voting record is easily accessible should you really be interested.

@239 -Benjamin Chesterton – could you please tell me who created “The Girl Effect”. It’s great.

Funny game this photography business don’t you think?

http://www.duckrabbit.info/blog

Casey Steele, I like you a lot! I see that you are more involved with your ethics, principals and include a high level of morals: The same that is in your personal life applies to your business standards, work principals and stewardship towards the profession of professional photographers. I like to think that I have your same approach to my work and obligation as a professional photographer.

Debra, your last post only reinforces the accuracy of the statement made by Casey. As a self appointed Sheppard, you confuse me. On the same note you have helped me to see and better understand your assertions of JGs actions as justifiable and how we should all get together and support her as an artist and her works, as well as commingled deceit for the sake of art. I have decided that you are 100% correct so; I am willing to speak with some acquaintances, in Tehran, and see if they still have room in their gallery for some of the JG recent work. I understand that there was an empty wall next to some of the sketches from Baghdad Bob, another great propaganda artist. If I am ever back there again, I will check out the gallery and give you an update on how well received it is there. I like to look a propaganda art and now that we can clearly define her work appropriately. I am all for supporting it and making sure that it hangs where it belongs. Thanks for clueing me onto the fact that it was truly hate art that she was after; we can now all enjoy the propaganda works, with international acclaim.

Propaganda is half-truths and/or spin through the culmination of fragmented statements, a method used to better mislead the population into a singular agenda of self-promoting prospective. It is a method used to better rule and control those that one considers to be a part of ones flock, or for the process utility of recruitment. Something that Hitler and Stalin were very good at; you know, create hatred in the masses and then we can foolishly guide them as authorities through the propaganda that we feed them. When you self appoint yourself, as the leading authority of a person, then you had better be a true authority; it would require unfiltered eyes though. So, since you are such a leading authority of JM and have spent all of this time following his entire career, and know his voting record intimately, please tell me the Ear Marks that were on each of those bills. Again, I am not defending JM or representing him, I just want to be better informed and know the “COMPLETE” truths that are not filtered through agenda. Just trying to keep this intelligent as I read further up that Debra demands intelligence from everyone and insists that we remain well informed.

So, let me get this correct: Your idea of business standards and practices also includes the hate factor? I mean if you agree with their hate, it is ok to screw the client and have confrontation with their subjects on set?

“Jill was willing to hate someone based on what people on her side told her about John McCain, she never gave him a chance.”

Excuse me – on what people told her? Where exactly do you get your information? Did it ever occur to you that Jill is actually aware of his voting record? There are so many reasons in that record and his actions to dislike him.

“People looking for votes exploit useful idiots like Jill to do stupid things for them and then run when something like this happens. ‘

Could you please elaborate on this?

“I would have had more respect for her if she stood up and confronted the man on what she was told she didn’t agree with, but she doesn’t know why she hates him.”

How do you know she didn’t say anything to him? Were you present at the shoot? Also, why do you keep implying that Jill was “told” how she should feel about him? Jill Greenberg doesn’t need to be told who she should or should not agree with. I’m sure she’s perfectly aware of why she hates him. I know I am.

However- it is rather easy for me to stay on topic and to also not loose brain function on one thing said one way and then later explained a different way, like “I was not doing that”. If I may quote your earlier post: “ @225 It is also well documented that he returned from Vietnam to find his once beautiful first wife with a changed appearance due to life threatening injuries sustained in a car crash. He cheated on her, picked up Cindy in a bar, divorced the first wife and married the heiress within a month. Now when a woman does that, they call her a gold digger, among many other things.” Please help me understand how this is not an incomplete statement and how it is not intended as a character assassination of a then recent POW, one that just returned from suffering severe trauma of 5 years in daily torcher? One cannot unfry an egg.

Now for the comment that you feel I twisted, again at @225 “Please do the country and your profession a favor and grow some spines”. Is this egg sunny side up or over easy? ☺

The original topic was about JG’s action and how it affects the client’s. The political spin and dismissal of anyone that’s disagrees, is nothing more that PR tactics; best served as a purpose to camouflage the original deeds by focusing on something, and/or someone, different. I am not even buying the idea that she is sorry because she realizes now that she should have said, in her statement about her client, it differently. She should have never taken her client there at all, especially through public platforms.

If it were not for what she did to her client, would the photograph manipulation then been ok? Sure it would have, would everyone agree with it? Probably not but that would not have dragged the industry into a PR, more protectionist, situation. Heck, I remember seeing a manipulated photograph of Jimmy Carter, in a shop in Germany, picking his nose. This was during the Reagan/Carter campaigns. No real difference, other than the fact that the photographer did not create a PR nightmare for their client and brag about how they screwed the client over for being stupid.

The facts are, like it or not, – George Bush was the platform on which JGs career was super started. If it were not for a fancy title and a bold political statement, she would have only had a collection of baby portraits, unique by the act that they were all crying. Granted she is a good photographer and does good work in PS, she has earned that. She may very well of launched her career anyway but I think it would be no different than someone like Dave Hill, who for that style of art, is great at what he does too. Make no mistake, the political statement, that represents that certain collection, is what some now believe that we as artist are all suppose to defend.

The use of light, in modern photography, can best be attributed to the early Dutch works of artists like: Caravaggio, Bramer, De Hooch, Vermeer and even some of the earlier works of Rembrandt (while he was studying and living in Amsterdam), as well as other’s. I will defend art but I will not defend a political statement that is built on the foundation of exploited crying babies. I respect you Debra and defend your right to your opinions and speech, just ask that you respect mine as well, and you have so far.

And to quote you one last time: “No one is assassinating John McCain’s character. Anyone who’s followed McCain’s career knows that he’s done a fine job of that himself.” The exact same thing can be said about Jill, this is what we are exercising but not using a political agenda as the crutch. To suggest that anyone that sides with how badly the client was treated, is somehow, not having a spine or not serving our country well? I am simply lost? Are we to defend a person “JUST” because they are considered to be an artist? God I hope not as I hear that Charlie Manson also paints and draws… NO ONE think that I am using this in comparison to JG or any one else as I am only talking about what we are suppose to define and defend!! I am just speaking on the topic of why we are supposed to defend all artist and their actions used to develop a particular sample, even when it includes a PR disaster that we create for our clients in doing so.

@224 It does not matter what JG did, she does NOT deserve this sort of threat treatment, at all!! Her actions do not justify any sort of invasion into her personal life or family. I hope they catch the idiots that are making these threats soon and put them under the prison, for a very long time!! I will defend her, the person, but I will not defend her business actions towards the client. 2 different things and this also means that I will not defend the end result that some refer to as art. JG does not deserve these threats nor should she or her family have to fear personal safety.

The PR machine is in overdrive.

Article:

http://tinyurl.com/4b2gsc

@231 – Steve Rood – good to see that you’re alive and well too!

I have a little issue with you but I will keep this on a higher adult level. First, spare me the High School Lecture on our political vetting process and the condescending statement of what office JM is running for. To better my bad use of grammar, in an attempt to take this back above the level of a “silly argument”, I will continue. (By the way, thanks for your positive comments on my terrible grammar Jodi, I was truly embarrassed. I know that I came across as less than erudite) Sorry for the little rabbit trail “equally as important”, I still prefer this name for you, respectfully! What I was trying to say is this: No person has the right or privilege to assassinate the character of a non political person, during the period of life that they were or are suffering from SEVERE trauma, and hold no political office, during this period! This is a major insult to every person that has ever put their lives on the line to protect everyone’s right to define their own character through the protected freedom’s we have.

Does this mean persons of political stature are open to the ruthless political spin agenda’s, absolutely! Everything that they say and do, while in office, is open and even prior to office is open season; just a long as it does not involve children and periods of severe trauma. Should JM be treated with a bit more respect because he spent 5 years as a POW? You are darned right that he does, as he was offered the chance of leaving torcher early and chose not to. He did this so that others, that have been there longer, could leave first. It is so easy to find spin data on both candidates; we don’t have to resort to such deceptive practices in order to completely demoralize an image of them. I personally feel this: Before anyone feels that they have the right to destroy an purposely destroy the image of a POW, and then brag about how they did it, first spend some time in a POW camp and suffer some of that torcher first. Then, maybe, you have earned the right but I would much rather you just burn the American flag first and call that art as well…

I am still on you “equally as important”. I read your comments to Jodi and was somewhat confused over your commentary. Let me get this straight: You believe that the merit of ones testimony, of spoken words in their presence, is only validated by their status on some social economic status? I mean, we should measure the worth of a person because they hold a certain position, or that their position is just to far down the food change for us to even listen to them? Kind of kill the messenger type of thing, huh? I have been to some those oppressed countries and I certainly did not like them ; it breaks my heart to see the lives that are stuck in this sort of out dated KGB mentality governments. Why would you preach government yet suppress the true experiences of another person as; “idle chit chat” because their position does not impress you?

It is apparent that you have either never had an assistant or worked as one, then you would understand their true value and not just dismiss them in such a condescending way. Let me qualify this for you some, as I know that you may want to dismiss this as “idle chit chat” as well. Before becoming a full time pro freelance photographer, I worked in the Business Intelligence and Management Consulting sector for 11 years. I partnered and worked with 3 of the then top 5 management-consulting firms and as a Regional Director; I also had 78 Fortune 500 companies on my list of clients. I know how the business side works and I know the margins that are assigned to PR. Jodi is 100% correct about companies shielding themselves from a potential future PR disaster. It is naïve to think that they would spend large budget’s on PR and just wait for the same thing to happen to them.

This is the part that really confuses me: Have you ever been President on the United States? Have you been invited to set down and have dinner with either BO or JM? Have they personally debriefed you on their agenda’s and/or policies? I am just wondering because using the same qualifier, that you tossed at Jodi, would that not also mean that anything that you say about JM or BO is nothing more than, “idle chit chat”? I hope not and I would hope that you might rethink the personal attack on Jodi as just an assistant.

This is the part that really takes the breath… On the front lines of every battle ever fought, men and women died and made the largest sacrifice for this country and had no idea if the person that just expired, next to them, was a Democrat or Republican. Yet, every 4 years, we use this distinction to justify the evil division between party lines. It truly makes me sick as so much is just tossed aside, mainly knowledge. Why isn’t there more attention on Congress and Senate, last I head, everything comes from there and I think their approval rating was 19%?

2 best things that came from the last 4 Bush years: Made the Carter years look a bit better: Launched JGs career with her baby pictures, funny the parallels 4 years later…

and to you and Ben: McCain is running for president of the US, not of the POW community. i’m sorry that he suffered, but it has nothing to do with the kind of foreign policy he will pursue or his environmental initiatives, and it certainly does NOT prevent us from having to vet him most thoroughly. it is simply silly to argue that he gets a pass or a magic vest or whatever.

@225 Debra, let me correct my-self, and let me say…. “I don’t think that commercial clients in America are going to want to be linked to Jill Greenberg doing work for them” As she was deceptive in getting the images. “I’

“I also think that what Avedon did was much fairer as to getting a reaction from them for his image, they were well aware that were being photographed”

He used a tactic that even his subjects might have appreciated.

Jill Greenberg, pure and simply cheated and manipulated her subject. Again to clarify
” In my opinion she disgraced her profession”

Whatever JM is, he is a POW, and suffered for 5 years. Yes he left his wife and moved on, let her speak out about it. Why should JG judge him on that? Who is she?

I’d like to see JG take a picture of Bill with a comment about Monica!!!!!
She won’t because she is a democrat!!!! She is crossing lines with her own political views, which is fine, with the crying babies…. She told the parents what she was doing……

My objection is to her deception and the tactics she used, and the statements she made
afterwards.

As far as mentioning how others feel at my workplace, I don’t think anyone should mind, as these are opinions of AB’s and Clients on a shoot. If JG is as busy as you say, she shouldn’t mind a different opinion here and there. Surely it’s controversy she was looking for?

I actually stand by what I said, I re-phrase it, I don’t think it’s AB’s and AD’s who make these decisions, I think it’s the client who has the end say, when using a very high profile photographer. So I am not insulting the AB’s and AD’s out there. I am just stating that Clients, by what I have heard, and from which I have formed “my own” opinion, Clients in America, won’t be able to use her, at least not for now.

I do believe that any presidential candidate deserves a certain amount of respect, especially from a professional photographer who was hired to take a portrait. As far as I am concerned,
as a democrat I am embarresed to have that in common in with JG.

I agree art is subjective, everyone to their own, except when an artist exposes other aspects of their personality which they are free to do, some of us can simply choose to no longer admire their body of work…. ie: clients! and of-course myself….. If JM is being so strongly judged for leaving his wife, when she herself is not speaking out. Surely I am free to make my choice of no longer liking her body of work!

I wouldn’t buy a painting from George Bush either! I am sure if he decided to paint tomorrow some in the art world would call it art!!!!