Comments on: Shepard Fairey and Mannie Garcia on NPR’s Fresh Air http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/ Former Photography Director Rob Haggart Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:54:26 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: JIK http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-53266 JIK Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:49:48 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-53266 @Scott Hargis, In today's United States of Obamaca, it's share and share alike. That's the socialist way. @Scott Hargis,
In today’s United States of Obamaca, it’s share and share alike. That’s the socialist way.

]]> By: Ruling Imagination: Law and Creativity » Blog Archive » Manny Garcia’s own words betray the weakness of his case. http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-47944 Ruling Imagination: Law and Creativity » Blog Archive » Manny Garcia’s own words betray the weakness of his case. Sat, 11 Jul 2009 18:06:00 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-47944 [...] later, in an interview with NPR’s Terry Gross at the end of February, Garcia seemed to be singing a different tune, saying that Fairey had taken something “that [...] [...] later, in an interview with NPR’s Terry Gross at the end of February, Garcia seemed to be singing a different tune, saying that Fairey had taken something “that [...] ]]> By: sgts http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-40382 sgts Thu, 19 Mar 2009 13:00:25 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-40382 obey are extremely robust at protecting their own rights, i've had problems with him myself - and the idea that he's out there standing up for the punks is laughable. obey are extremely robust at protecting their own rights, i’ve had problems with him myself – and the idea that he’s out there standing up for the punks is laughable.

]]> By: Leo Lam http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-40205 Leo Lam Mon, 16 Mar 2009 21:12:39 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-40205 This whole thing could have been avoided by Fairey if he had the simple decency to ask Garcia for the right to alter his photograph. This is not about whether this is Fair Use or not any more. If one read or listened to what Fairey has said so far, it is about a "me, me, me" entitlement mentality without any regards for other people's rights or property. This is almost like a thief breaking into someone's house, injured himself then sue the house owner for slippery floor. I say, Fairey, pay up, big time. This whole thing could have been avoided by Fairey if he had the simple decency to ask Garcia for the right to alter his photograph.

This is not about whether this is Fair Use or not any more. If one read or listened to what Fairey has said so far, it is about a “me, me, me” entitlement mentality without any regards for other people’s rights or property. This is almost like a thief breaking into someone’s house, injured himself then sue the house owner for slippery floor.

I say, Fairey, pay up, big time.

]]> By: jesse http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-39752 jesse Thu, 12 Mar 2009 03:10:09 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-39752 i just listened to the trio of npr recordings. i agree with others.... fairey doesn't make a very good argument for himself here. still, i have believed this was more on the side of fair use even before i heard this. i really don't agree that he would have nothing without this photo. he would have found another and likely would have come up with almost the same poster in the end. he was looking for a particular position which he found in that photo. if it weren't there he would have found another with a very close pose. i find it interesting that the photographer himself didn't even recognize the image, nor is anyone positive as to which image was even used. i find neither the one he claims nor the one the ap claims to be dead on. it's a very loose reference in my opinion. i am not close to a lawyer myself, but seem to fall on the other side of your argument. i almost always fall on the side of the photographer, but in this case i find the AP's case questionable. Nothing like the lawsuit against richard prince. this all said, i do agree that to be safe, he should have licensed the image. i just listened to the trio of npr recordings. i agree with others…. fairey doesn’t make a very good argument for himself here. still, i have believed this was more on the side of fair use even before i heard this.
i really don’t agree that he would have nothing without this photo. he would have found another and likely would have come up with almost the same poster in the end. he was looking for a particular position which he found in that photo. if it weren’t there he would have found another with a very close pose. i find it interesting that the photographer himself didn’t even recognize the image, nor is anyone positive as to which image was even used. i find neither the one he claims nor the one the ap claims to be dead on. it’s a very loose reference in my opinion.
i am not close to a lawyer myself, but seem to fall on the other side of your argument. i almost always fall on the side of the photographer, but in this case i find the AP’s case questionable. Nothing like the lawsuit against richard prince.

this all said, i do agree that to be safe, he should have licensed the image.

]]> By: Robbie McClaran http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38767 Robbie McClaran Sat, 28 Feb 2009 23:51:30 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38767 For me the sadder part of the interview came when Garcia was discussing his own dispute with AP regarding whether he, as a free-lancer with no signed contract, was in fact “employed” by the AP. AP is claiming he "was obviously employed by the AP" thus all his images were works made for hire and therefore the property of the AP. But Garcia claims was a free-lancer, not an employee, meaning not on salary with full benefits, etc. and had not signed a contract granting such rights. If that's the case then all works should remain Garcia’s property. I hope Mannie wins that one. For me the sadder part of the interview came when Garcia was discussing his own dispute with AP regarding whether he, as a free-lancer with no signed contract, was in fact “employed” by the AP. AP is claiming he “was obviously employed by the AP” thus all his images were works made for hire and therefore the property of the AP. But Garcia claims was a free-lancer, not an employee, meaning not on salary with full benefits, etc. and had not signed a contract granting such rights. If that’s the case then all works should remain Garcia’s property. I hope Mannie wins that one.

]]> By: Thomas Pickard http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38761 Thomas Pickard Sat, 28 Feb 2009 19:23:50 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38761 I find this whole 'fair use' quite interesting. I am not a lawyer and I am sure this is a simple view, but without the photo to begin with, Fairey would have nothing. Period. Fairey should pay for a license - he is benefiting from someone else's work. I find this whole ‘fair use’ quite interesting. I am not a lawyer and I am sure this is a simple view, but without the photo to begin with, Fairey would have nothing. Period.

Fairey should pay for a license – he is benefiting from someone else’s work.

]]> By: Giulio Sciorio http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38752 Giulio Sciorio Sat, 28 Feb 2009 14:33:34 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38752 Ah the bullshit continues. If a photo was used it needs to be paid for. Fairey copied a lot of work (like my ol' pal the prince) in past pieces but because the Obama was so popular he got caught. GOOD. You can find good images to use on your Obamamania crap thats free. Check this out - http://onceyougoblackyoullnevergoback.com/ so here's another artist trying to cash in. I talked to the designer of this shirt about what Fairey is going through and the designer told me that he got a license for the image and.....that it cost nothing. Ah the bullshit continues. If a photo was used it needs to be paid for. Fairey copied a lot of work (like my ol’ pal the prince) in past pieces but because the Obama was so popular he got caught. GOOD.

You can find good images to use on your Obamamania crap thats free.

Check this out -
http://onceyougoblackyoullnevergoback.com/

so here’s another artist trying to cash in. I talked to the designer of this shirt about what Fairey is going through and the designer told me that he got a license for the image and…..that it cost nothing.

]]> By: Will Seberger http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38732 Will Seberger Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:39:31 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38732 I hate Fairey's reasoning (and just about everything else about him), but I have a feeling this will be found to be fair use, and for what it's worth, I don't totally disagree. And if I didn't loathe Fairey's "nothing is off-limits to me" attitude, I'd probably feel ok about it. Not good, but OK. Early in the interview he talks about taking pleasure in finding his stickers all over the world. His descriptions of those places seem to indicate that neither he, nor the person that placed them there, has any right to do so. He's been accused of doing graffiti on buildings in Boston (at the age of thirty; a bit beyond where I'd be more willing to forgive a 'youthful indiscretion'). He's innocent until proven guilty, but such allegations go to pattern. He takes everything as his with that 1990's, suburban bad-boy sense of entitlement, and sadly, his use of the AP's image is the most legitimate and least bad thing that's come out about him recently. I hate Fairey’s reasoning (and just about everything else about him), but I have a feeling this will be found to be fair use, and for what it’s worth, I don’t totally disagree.

And if I didn’t loathe Fairey’s “nothing is off-limits to me” attitude, I’d probably feel ok about it. Not good, but OK.

Early in the interview he talks about taking pleasure in finding his stickers all over the world. His descriptions of those places seem to indicate that neither he, nor the person that placed them there, has any right to do so.

He’s been accused of doing graffiti on buildings in Boston (at the age of thirty; a bit beyond where I’d be more willing to forgive a ‘youthful indiscretion’). He’s innocent until proven guilty, but such allegations go to pattern.

He takes everything as his with that 1990’s, suburban bad-boy sense of entitlement, and sadly, his use of the AP’s image is the most legitimate and least bad thing that’s come out about him recently.

]]> By: David O. http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38715 David O. Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:29:15 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38715 @Scott Hargis, Rightly said. @Scott Hargis,
Rightly said.

]]> By: Scott Hargis http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38711 Scott Hargis Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:29:32 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38711 Fairey made a comment that I hear again and again in defense of appropriating other people's work -- "...These are all things that were created by people who probably don’t have the resources to license an image." And again, in the next paragraph: "... a whole group of artists that would be self-censored, probably, because they can’t afford the photos..." What the hell?! I can't afford to buy a new Hassleblad H3, either, but that doesn't give me the right to walk in to B&H and just steal one. Lack of finance should not be a factor in determining fair use. Fairey made a comment that I hear again and again in defense of appropriating other people’s work — “…These are all things that were created by people who probably don’t have the resources to license an image.”

And again, in the next paragraph:
“… a whole group of artists that would be self-censored, probably, because they can’t afford the photos…”

What the hell?! I can’t afford to buy a new Hassleblad H3, either, but that doesn’t give me the right to walk in to B&H and just steal one. Lack of finance should not be a factor in determining fair use.

]]> By: Timothy Schenck http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38710 Timothy Schenck Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:14:05 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38710 @Brian L., I wouldn't put the work of wire service photogs below that of other photographers, especially in light of the current argument. A photo is a photo and the photographer still has rights regardless of how "creative" the photo may or may not be. @Brian L.,

I wouldn’t put the work of wire service photogs below that of other photographers, especially in light of the current argument. A photo is a photo and the photographer still has rights regardless of how “creative” the photo may or may not be.

]]> By: Fresh Aire Discusses Obama “Hope” Poster | latoga photography http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38709 Fresh Aire Discusses Obama “Hope” Poster | latoga photography Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:13:25 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38709 [...] Update:  Check out the related post from A Photo Editor.  I expect there to be some interesting discussions in that [...] [...] Update:  Check out the related post from A Photo Editor.  I expect there to be some interesting discussions in that [...] ]]> By: Timothy Schenck http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38708 Timothy Schenck Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:10:28 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38708 I agree that Fairey's poster elevated the original photographic work, taking it from relative obscurity to global renown. That does not give him the right to the original work. The whole fuss would seem to be a non-issue if he would have just licensed the image from the start. Let's remember that he doesn't deny being a "commercial street artist" and had to know that his poster would have some legs. I agree that Fairey’s poster elevated the original photographic work, taking it from relative obscurity to global renown. That does not give him the right to the original work. The whole fuss would seem to be a non-issue if he would have just licensed the image from the start. Let’s remember that he doesn’t deny being a “commercial street artist” and had to know that his poster would have some legs.

]]> By: Jesse Knight http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38700 Jesse Knight Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:15:46 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38700 Here are the direct NPR links: Artist, Shepard Fairy: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101182453 Photographer, Mannie Garcia: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101184444 Law Professor, Gary Lastowka: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101187066 and the overall podcast: http://www.learnoutloud.com/Podcast-Directory/Arts-and-Entertainment/Film_-Music_-Radio_-TV_-and-Pop-Culture/NPR-Fresh-Air-Podcast/22361 Here are the direct NPR links:
Artist, Shepard Fairy:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101182453

Photographer, Mannie Garcia:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101184444

Law Professor, Gary Lastowka:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101187066

and the overall podcast:
http://www.learnoutloud.com/Podcast-Directory/Arts-and-Entertainment/Film_-Music_-Radio_-TV_-and-Pop-Culture/NPR-Fresh-Air-Podcast/22361

]]> By: A Photo Editor http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38697 A Photo Editor Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:06:56 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38697 @Brian L., It's the first quote from Fairey where he said he looked at a lot of photographs before he selected this one. That indicates to me that the photograph had qualities in it that were not available in other pictures of Obama. @Brian L.,
It’s the first quote from Fairey where he said he looked at a lot of photographs before he selected this one. That indicates to me that the photograph had qualities in it that were not available in other pictures of Obama.

]]> By: Ruling Imagination: Law and Creativity » Blog Archive » Shepard Fairey did not infringe AP’s copyright because AP could not have had a copyright in anything Shepard Fairey used in his Obama Hope poster. http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38696 Ruling Imagination: Law and Creativity » Blog Archive » Shepard Fairey did not infringe AP’s copyright because AP could not have had a copyright in anything Shepard Fairey used in his Obama Hope poster. Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:40:45 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38696 [...] II: Fairey was interviewed by Terry Gross on Fresh Air.  From the interview: Mr. FAIREY: Well, the AP was threatening to sue me, and they first contacted [...] [...] II: Fairey was interviewed by Terry Gross on Fresh Air.  From the interview: Mr. FAIREY: Well, the AP was threatening to sue me, and they first contacted [...] ]]> By: Brian L. http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/02/27/shepard-fairey-and-mannie-garcia-on-nprs-fresh-air/comment-page-1/#comment-38695 Brian L. Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:30:56 +0000 http://www.aphotoeditor.com/?p=2216#comment-38695 VERY interesting. Peter Friedman had some related commentary about the issues surrounding Copyright here that is quite interesting: http://blogs.geniocity.com/friedman/?p=1664 His arguments certainly make sense to me, but raise all kinds of new questions. For instance, if wire service photography in and of itself isn't "creative" work, i.e., there's not a whole lot of literal lighting and composition that goes into the shot, then does Copyright law *truly* apply to it? Judging by my interactions with wire service photographers over the years, there *is* usually an extraordinary amount of effort put into framing the photo that could qualify as "creative" expression, so I'm not sure how it would all balance out. Your thoughts, o sage Photo Editor? :) Regards, Brian VERY interesting. Peter Friedman had some related commentary about the issues surrounding Copyright here that is quite interesting:

http://blogs.geniocity.com/friedman/?p=1664

His arguments certainly make sense to me, but raise all kinds of new questions. For instance, if wire service photography in and of itself isn’t “creative” work, i.e., there’s not a whole lot of literal lighting and composition that goes into the shot, then does Copyright law *truly* apply to it?

Judging by my interactions with wire service photographers over the years, there *is* usually an extraordinary amount of effort put into framing the photo that could qualify as “creative” expression, so I’m not sure how it would all balance out.

Your thoughts, o sage Photo Editor? :)

Regards,
Brian

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