“Sir, we’re not the taco stand” I clearly remember an argument with my editor once where he stood there for half an hour trying to tell me that the shoot budget needed to come down and I tried to explain that no, if he wanted to pay less then we needed to change the shoot not just tell someone to make it less. Explaining it in “real life” terms, that we’re ordering the tenderloin and if you want to pay less just order a hamburger seemed to help.
On a similar note there a new documentary out about writer Harlan Ellison called Dreams with Sharp Teeth. Remember this line from the writers strike:
“I should do a freebie for Warner Brothers? What is Warner Brothers – out with an eye patch and a tin cup on the street? Fuck no! . . . I sell my soul, but at the highest rates. I don’t piss without being paid.”
“The trick is not becoming a writer. The trick is staying a writer.”
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I was once told that the client “is the most profitable company in the world because they keep their money…” And then they promptly took a project I was working on with Michael Schwab in-house and had an intern do it.
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 8:41 am ¶More like,
“IF you do me a favor on this one, I know shitloads of people who need stuff done for them too…. Whadya say?”
Hear it all the time.
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j. Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 10:38 am
@jimmy,
haha! heard that one just the other day. To which I replied: “So if I do some work for free, you’re gonna find more free work for me? Sounds great…”
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jimmy Reply:
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:53 pm
@j., Although -in tongue- some of us out there are just as bad.
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/aus/558260167.html
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Brett Reply:
June 4th, 2009 at 12:36 am
@jimmy, That’s great!
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Dreams with Sharp Teeth, available @ Netflix.
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 10:03 am ¶I always loved this from Craigslist:
http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/hmb/1005451723.html
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 10:09 am ¶@Mason: Ha! That’s a good one. Unfortunately, it’s not an exaggeration of the truth… (The best comedy usually isn’t.)
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 10:35 am ¶I always worry about giving the pitch and then having them hire someone else to do it!
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 11:19 am ¶“we are the guardians of forever”
I like his principles on being paid.
If your pipes are clogged or whatnot you call a plumber you don’t negotiate. You pay what they say.
They render a service and you pay the cost.
Many companies like to act like they are doing you a favor by hiring you and that you should replace payment with thankfulness.
I love what Harlan has to say in this bit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 11:57 am ¶I love it!! Thanks for the levity Rob…
Just shot a job where they tried to rationalize smaller fees for potential work down the road when the client has a ‘real’ budget. Gotta stick to your guns!
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 12:39 pm ¶“We’re going to need you to show us how you did this, so we can do it ourselves, in-house from now on.”
Pretty much sums up too many projects to mention during my career in advertising. Now that I’m a photographer, I just say no. And it feels good.
Great post.
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 12:41 pm ¶Thanks, Rob. Love that first clip. Absolutely classic!
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 12:50 pm ¶Here’s the full segment on the Warner Brothers’ pirate thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 1:08 pm ¶Isn’t that nice??? maybe one can send this to those clients who don’t get it.
We often use the analogy of car rental-renting a car doesn’t mean you own the car – and the plumber….well he gets paid for his ’service’ every time….
thanks for the perspective- they should show this in photography class : )
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 1:21 pm ¶“I sell my soul, but at the highest rates. I don’t piss without being paid.”
I so want this on my tombstone :)
PP
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 1:40 pm ¶So true especially in these sketchy financial times. I know a photographer who actually raised his rate. In doing so he actually started getting more high-end work with more control over his productions.
I also know a few people that schmooze and play the “I’ll totally hook you up” game, they have a great client list, but all the clients are one hit wonders.
If you want a Gucci shoot, you need to pay Gucci dollars.
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 1:50 pm ¶Thanks for sticking up for us Rob! Good to know ther is someone on our side. ;>)
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 3:54 pm ¶Welcome to my life.
Someone shoot me, please?
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 5:59 pm ¶Thanks for sharing this video. After watching this video I showed it to my student intern who begins art school in a couple of months. This video probably communicates more to her about valuing ones work and photography much more than hours of sitting through a business of photography class.
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Posted 02 Jun 2009 at 11:54 pm ¶The BCooter plan for economic recovery:
Every professional photographer in the world raise your right hand and repeat after me.
From this moment own, I _____you name______promise to quadruple every rate, fee and estimate I or my agents produce, compared to previous 2007 numbers.
I ______your name______promise when negotiations come to push to shove and the client asks me to re estimate the job at lower figures, I promise to go up another 25%. If the client asks for a third estimate, I promise to go up another 25% and so on and so on.
Signed ________________date______________space for blood oath____________.
This way there is no clawing your way back to prosperity.
B
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Art Buyer Reply:
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:21 am
@bcooter,
Your humor is appreciated, but your oath will be costing you jobs. The reality of the market right now is too obvious to ignore. My phone is ringing off the hook with reps and shooters needing work. Microstock, RF, photo school young guns, Flickr and in-house shooters all work against the photographer who is unwilling to negotiate.
I am in no way suggesting that you work for nothing or what you would consider unreasonable for a certain project, but often the value of a shoot is revealed in an award show pencil, the relationship built with an Art Director or a sweet portfolio piece. All of these things lead to other work.
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Bob Reply:
June 4th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
@Art Buyer,
Lol!
I’m looking forward to seeing microstock celebrated in One Show, Clio, and D&AD awards :D
It’s great if one project leads to another, but only if business is equitable. Very few advertising agencies would stay in business if they made no money – regardless of how much they love the job. Negotiation is a two way street. Often the visuals are the least expensive part of a campaign – yet also the cornerstone. Fair trade is a reasonable expectation.
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This is so on point it’s painful.
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Posted 03 Jun 2009 at 8:25 am ¶wow i needed that. cheers.
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Posted 04 Jun 2009 at 8:43 am ¶Art buyer makes a very good point.
I laughed at the video and felt the pain just like everyone else. What the video didn’t show is all of us photographers saying “ok sure” right away and then whining about how we aren’t appreciated. The reality is that the market is over saturated with talented photographers fighting for less and less work. Clients know it’s a buyer’s market and they are acting accordingly. I think most of us want to think of ourselves as artists with a unique vision. However, in the commercial world, the truth is that we know there is a long line of photographers behind us that can provide acceptable work and are willing to work for any price.
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Posted 04 Jun 2009 at 2:01 pm ¶same shit all around the globe!
my new COO came out of nowhere and cut all.
can you imagine,in the magazine that is 90% photographs,he told me that my work has no economic value at all.
than next week circulation jump 10%,and He is a King.
i still have to shoot on same level,not because of him,but because of myself,and fatboy goes to boss office with small nubers and gets his bonus.ha ha!!
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Posted 06 Jun 2009 at 7:17 pm ¶“We do not have rates for photographers as such. What we do offer is space in a beautifully produced magazine”
Sarah Fordham from Sublime Magazine dixit.
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Posted 07 Jun 2009 at 4:38 am ¶I’m still laughing
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Posted 07 Jun 2009 at 4:39 am ¶I once refused to work pro-bono for a large UK charity on account of the fact that I’d seen it’s published accounts and the amount of charity money that was spent on:
The CEO
The rent of their buildings
Their advertising budget for press & TV
After a couple of emails the pic-ed said “That’s what I hate about photographers, they’re all capitalists”.
Unbelievable.
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Posted 08 Jun 2009 at 5:12 am ¶Sad but true, hear it all the time. A favorite line I read a while ago from potential client trying to negotiate lower rates on the phone – Caller: “So what do I get for 500 bucks?” Producer: “Heck, we’re almost there now.” THAT’S sticking to your guns. I’ve used this line and it’s actually a great ice-breaker to educate about rates and service. Thanks for the funny!
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Posted 01 Jul 2009 at 7:05 am ¶Trackbacks & Pingbacks 1
[...] got the link for the video from APhotoEditors’ blog post “Sir, Were Not the Taco Stand”. It has a cool clip about how clients want more for less. It’s worth taking a look; even if you [...]
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