Yes most definitely agree to Disagree with an open heart:):):)
and thanks for helping to create such a wonderful discussion.

Haha, I love grilled cheese. Ok, I’ll see you at the top!

;-)

What I like about you is that you talk beyond the technicalities of business and get into the mind. Technicals are great but without faith nothing else would exist or matter, everything starts out as a thought in your mind. As a human we have the power to think whatever we want, which is a powerful thing for good or for bad.

Clark Patrick,

I admire your honesty and realistic attitude, though a bit negative. If I wrote paragraph upon paragraph of how I believe I will eat a cheese sandwich this week, it will most probably end up happening. Overly simplified but you are what you think.

For sure! Do both!

Where I don’t see that is in premium or specialized imaging. Just as with luxury products, there is a market that wants something beyond price. As an old saying goes: there are many people who know the price of everything, and the value of nothing.

One other change I have noted is a move to more illustrated or designed solutions, instead of photography usage. A look though HOW magazine, or CommArts, shows a greater volume of drawn or designed creative solutions than in the past; and many of those are in-house from the agencies. Surely some of that is economic, though I suspect deadlines and workflow practices might account for a bit too. Sometimes it almost makes me want to go back to doing illustration.

Having basic statically data on an industry for which you are a leading consultant isn’t having all the answers… it’s understanding the business of the field you work in.

Starting a consulting business in photography is not the same thing as working as a photographer, plus starting to consult in a field 30 years that there weren’t any competitors seems like a really good business idea to me…

I would imagine your business is doing better than ever now that there are even more professionals looking for answers as things have turned down with the economy.

But, the down economy is only part of what I see as systemic issues with how the industry has chance over the last few years. It doesn’t matter how good at marketing yourself you are if the money isn’t there anymore. If you really wanted to help out the industry you should be leading the charge on a micro payment system for web related image usage fees, help with the PLUS coalition, are even start a union!

I don’t have any ill will towards your point of view. But, I think you are just plain wrong and I guess only time will tell who is more right.

My prediction is that commercial photography is on the same track as the music industry was not so long ago… people began stealing music on-line, without paying proper fees for it… (now people use good images on-line with out paying fairly for it..)

This broke the big music companies because they were taking loses faster than they could handle… (commercial shooters are taking loses faster than they can handle…) they fought micro-payments ideas like itunes at first than finally gave in and gained some ground back. (And that is part of what needs to happen for our industry as well… but who is going to organize that when we all fight for the same work right now anyway???)

I think it’s funny why you haven’t asked me a really simple question – if I think the industry is going down the tubes (and I’m so negative about it) than why am I still trying to be working in it? Haha, good question.

I’m the type of person that thrives on challenges. I like the fact that it’s going down because I believe in myself more than I believe in a lot of other people who will give up or are forced to give up. I have done so many things in my life that didn’t seem like a good idea to many on the outside just to see if I could make them work.

I think of it like this… just because something is a bad idea (running a photography business in it’s decline) doesn’t mean it’s not worth doing. And just because something is a good idea (like selling sunshine to sad photographers in a decline, haha, just kidding..) doesn’t mean it’s worth doing either. It all comes down to what makes you happy, right?

And right now there are a lot of shooters who aren’t happy and maybe need to hear that things aren’t going to get better so they can decided to move on and try other things that will make them happy. Because for everyone there has to be a bottom line… how long can you go without getting paid?

We have the same goal of being happy and helping others be happy, we just a very different outlook.

Agree to disagree?

;-)

Clark!

Does that make sense? Less money collected from loss of fees + more expensive gear and marketing costs + more shooters = declining overall business for working pros individually.

Plus in a down economy it’s a buyers market so they can drive pricing down even further because they know people will do more for less or they lose the work. And if you are the guy who does more for less in the downturn it’s an uphill battle trying to get better rates once things turn around because people know you’ll work for less than you use too… So you are forced to work for less or see if you can ride out the storm by saying no to work you might need if the pricing isn’t fair.

That issue has happened to many shooters a few times since the transition to digital around 2001.

“If one of my children told me they wanted to be in the NBA I would say, “Great, I’m really glad you have a dream… but did you know statically speaking 1 out of nearly13,000 high school varsity basketball players makes it into the NBA? Do you think you can beat those odds? Think about it for a week… and if you think you can beat that 1 out of 13,000 to get into the NBA we’ll go buy you a new basketball because you’ve got a lot a work ahead of you.””

lol. I bet you’re fun at parties.

You are totally missing my point. I agree with you 100% – this business constantly shifts, there are shooters even in this intense downturn who are doing very very well, having 5-7 sales avenues, good relationships, energy, positivism, perseverance, talent, etc. are extremely important in having a successful business photographic or otherwise. etc. etc. And I know all about physics, specifically quantum entanglement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement) – how a synergetic connections, like a cosmically ordained photo assignment can happen.

However, I completely disagree with you – you do project the world through rose-colored glasses and I think it is honestly a disserves to many, particularly young aspiring, photographers. And here’s why – if I were Rob and I were to interview you for this blog these are the questions I would have asked you:

-As an industry do you know how much revenue is down for the year for commercial shooters on average, how about since 2001?
-Over the last 3 years how many editorial shooters have lost their jobs from staff positions from publications? How many of those shooters have tried to enter the commercial marketplace?
-Do you have any data on how much loss in revenue has occurred from traditional print media sources, like magazine print ad campaigns over the last 3-5 years?
-Do you have any data in relative terms as to what professional level equipment costs are now compared to the pre-digital era of photography, the 1990’s, 80’s, 70’s, etc. with or without inflation, How about marketing costs?
-Do you have any information about how many professional shooters who have been in business over 5 years leave the marketplace each year relative to how many enter the marketplace? How about for 2009? How many shooters with over 5 years business experience have left the market or had less than 3 commercial assignments in 2009?
-Do you think it is true that 10% of commercial shooters make 90% or the available revenue in the industry as a whole, has it always been like that?
-Do you have any data as to what the average take home income of a commercial shooter is now compared to the each of the last 4 decades?
-Or how about this one – how many successful commercial shooters are divorced? How many have gotten divorced within the last 10 years?
If I had to guess, I would say you don’t have any hard data to answer these questions, which I think you should if you are consultant in this field – And if you did I would bet my house on the fact that that data would reveal an INDUSTRY in decline – from a strictly business point of view – as an industry and not as super energized talented individuals.

I interact with a lot of young people interested in photography and paint a much more realistic portrait than you do, because I know that even if you have the best attitude in the world, work harder than anyone else, and have some talent too – it still doesn’t mean you will be able to create a viable sustainable (over a career) business as a commercial photographer, because the numbers are stacked against you and getting worse.

It was interesting how someone in response earlier mentioned screenwriters and actors as examples of equally difficult fields of entry. Another example could be trying to get into the NBA – just because you have a good attitude, talent, work hard, have connections, whatever doesn’t mean you’ll make it. And by telling people what you do without giving them a proper window into the industry hurts them when they aren’t truly aware of how difficult it is. Of course positivism makes up for a lot, but it doesn’t make up for the fact that I won’t wake up tomorrow and be 7 feet tall so I can finally get into the NBA.

So again, here is my point. Just because you might be able to make it as a commercial shooter now whether you have 10 years of experience or it’s your first day in your new studio, doesn’t mean it’s not an industry in decline from a money making standpoint (again, not from a creative standpoint). And it doesn’t mean it is a good business to be in from that point of view. You didn’t respond to this point. Also, again find me one music video director who makes his living making music videos and music videos alone – there are none, that industry died. Those former music video directors didn’t die… but their businesses did.

If one of my children told me they wanted to be in the NBA I would say, “Great, I’m really glad you have a dream… but did you know statically speaking 1 out of nearly13,000 high school varsity basketball players makes it into the NBA? Do you think you can beat those odds? Think about it for a week… and if you think you can beat that 1 out of 13,000 to get into the NBA we’ll go buy you a new basketball because you’ve got a lot a work ahead of you.” That’s not rosy, it’s realistic. It’s easy to sell sunshine, but it’s hard to speak the truth. This industry is in decline whether or not you want to believe it. And that is what I believe until I see some data that proves otherwise.

THIS. Yes. Exactly. Attitude is everything. I don’t read blog comments much anymore (yes..this time I did and felt compelled to respond) because they tend to be very negative and woe-is-us, which is not the kind of vibe I want in my mind. It is unproductive.

It is important to always be moving and coming up with new, creative things and ways of working. You can never sit still for long. It is an industry that favors the agile, creative and energetic. And that true on both the art and business side of it.

I would rate this in the top ten of the posts I have read here. As someone who has relied on personal relationships to get work and retain clients, this post verified one part of my marketing. Selina’s words have inspired me to go further in my efforts. Thanks to Selina and you, Rob, for posting this. My biggest take away from this is that we have to work hard, invest time, and believe in ourselves and our visions as photographers. Yes it is hard, but life is hard. If being a commercially viable photographer was easy, everybody would be doing it. I will be Selina’s series.

Indeed, but that has nothing to do with sustainability… you can adapt all you want, but that doesn’t automatically mean business survival. Again, I’m not saying it’s impossible to make it in this business I’m saying it is no longer a good business – at least if you think of it strickly in terms of the bottom line.

Some people grow old and fail to adapt.

C’est la vie. The world today is very different than 10 years ago and in 10 years that will again be the case.

I don’t think that pictures are going away anytime soon. Business models change.

Adapt or quit.

Great thoughts and comments in response to my post. And thanks for your compliments on my work. I agree with you that great imagery will always have a place in the world and in the advertising industry, but the question is will it have a place of proper financial value – sustainable value for running a business? My answer is that it will eventually not… and soon. The industry is eroding in a somewhat cancerous way – there are many different factors which collectively are eating away at it’s sustainability. Now, you are most certainly correct in that if you think about the business in new ways and work towards new models it can survive, but than it becomes a fundamentally different business… Like my music video example – I know a lot of music video directors… and many music videos are still being made today, but they are mostly being made with very small, non-sustainable amounts of money, and basically all music video directors make a living working in that industry in some other way. So what is their business model? A mixed source of income with some videos in there doing what they love. My point is that their are some system issues with how, why, where, etc. shooters generate income in commercial photography that are beyond their ability to work harder or think their way out of. There many industries that become no longer viable as business. How many typewriter companies do you know? But, there sure are a lot of computer keyboards out there… entirely different things, but still using the same old keys — does that makes sense? And no, I have certainly not given up on my business, but I do however, have another one that is sustainable which allows me to not give up. If I weren’t making money in another way my commercial photography business would have to be closed down. I come from a family of business owners some of them creative businesses some of them very non-traditional businesses and without any shame or disappointment sometimes business need to be closed up for the most simple and important reason – they don’t make money.

You bring up some great points and have obviously put a lot of thought into your post. However, your attitude is a bit disconcerting. It’s an attitude that I’ve seen and heard over and over again. “Business sucks and we’re all doomed”.

The “reality” here is that business in 2009 is different than it was 10 years ago but i don’t think that means it’s dying as you say. It just means we have to adapt and figure out a new way to do business. I’m no expert and I’m sure you have more experience in this business than myself. Perhaps my ignorance is an asset though. I don’t do something a certain way just because that’s how it’s always been done simply because I don’t know how it’s always been done.

“Commercial photography is becoming an almost non-viable business”. I couldn’t disagree more. Strong imagery will ALWAYS have a place in commerce. We are visual people and that won’t change. Commercial photography as we know it (or have known it) may be headed downward but that only leaves opportunity to forge a new path.

I’ve heard every argument you make from countless other sources and as I said before they are very valid points. The real issue is – what are you doing with that information? I want to learn from it and use it to my advantage. The truth is, building a thriving commercial photography business is harder now than it has been in the past (so I’ve heard anyway). It sounds like you’ve decided it’s not worth the hard work. Nothing wrong with that at all. For me, at this point, I’ve decided it IS worth the hard work.

“you can have the best attitude in the whole world, work harder than anyone else, have a great book, many relationships and experience and still not make it – today”. If you work hard, have a great attitude and build genuine relationships you will always make it no matter what form of business you do. I guess it just depends what your definition of “make it” is.

This is just my .02. As I said, I’m no expert and I certainly value the opinions of seasoned veterans in this great field. By the way Clark, you have some fantastic portrait work in your portfolio.

I think your thoughts here all make sense and is overall very good advice. And as someone else pointed out in an earlier tag is also fairly common sense.

However, the reality of 2009 is a bit more problematic in the real world of working pros than what you are talking about. Honestly, I believe commercial photography is becoming an almost non-viable business for a number of reasons:

- fees collected from traditional sources such a magazine print, billboard, etc. are drying up at an exponential rate. (Formerly a major portion of commercial shooters income.)
- fees for on-line usage of images are not making up the difference of this loss of income from traditional avenues.
- lots of stock imagery is still taking away projects from commercial assignment shooters.
- Former editorial shooters are flooding the commercial space for work. Along with higher level wedding shooters who are being flooded by a wave of prosumer shooters taking their business.
- Prosumers are getting bits of commercial work because they aren’t charging viable commercial pricing and can grab a bit of the pie based off their own relationships.
- Equipment costs – i.e. professional level cameras, lights, computers etc. – relative to inflation cost more now than every before by a large margin.
- Due to increased competition marketing costs now also costs much more than ever.
- For the year commercial assignments are down as much as 40% and some formerly high paying focus areas like the Auto industry are almost totally wiped out.
- And there are in fact many more ‘numbers’ than you might be willing to admit – i.e. there are far more qualified professional level photographers with specific visions, good relationships, hard core marketing efforts, good manners and funny jokes than there are assignments available….

I could come up with a longer and more through list if need be, but my point is this – you can have the best attitude in the whole world, work harder than anyone else, have a great book, many relationships and experience and still not make it – today.

I’m based in Minneapolis/St. Paul where there is basically one professional level store in town called West Photo. If you go into West Photo right now there is about 25 used mono-stands for sale. Shooters only sell their mono-stands when they shut down there studios… I know of at least 10 formerly successful shooters based here who have closed there doors this year (and likely many more that I don’t know about…). In the past we have had a very good market place here (as you know since you have consulted many shooter in this area).

Of the 50 or so higher level commercial shooters base here I don’t know of a single one who has had more than a handful of assignments for the year… And many of them had only one or two projects outside of Target which basically floats our whole photo community.

And this is not just in our regional market. I just got back from San Fran. today – I had meeting with 6 art buyers, 2 repping firms, some bloggers, and 2 other commercial shooters. The buyers are absolutely overwhelmed with marketing, the shooters and reps echo my thoughts.

Before I started shooting I was a music video producer. For a while business was good… you could come up with an idea, figure out how much it would cost, get your expenses covered, and make a little money. Then the music industry started losing money due to illegal downloads and they started tightening budgets… and pitting directors and productions companies against each to do projects at cost (Similar to insane requests from agencies asking auto shooters to cover multi-hundred-thousands of dollars of expenses for shoots out of their own pocket…). It worked for a while, but their big businesses begin to fail and so did the directors and producers who use to make a living in that world.

This is what is happening to commercial photography… it is a dying business – not a dying creative form (actually thriving more than ever in creativity), but a dying viable business. Obviously there will be a need for imagery in advertising in the future, but consider this… how many music video directors in 2009 make a living, i.e. survive completely off income generated from creating music videos? Almost none.

I hate to say it, but many more people need to face the facts that even if it is possible to keep your current business alive or to build a new one in this market – it doesn’t mean it’s a good business to be in no matter what your vision is.

Also there is a big business in get-rich-quick, Entrepreneurial/Sales seminars. There are also many books and DVDs devoted to this subject. There is a mainstay of Infomercials.

Google “creative writing seminars.”

Photography is a Johnny-come-lately.

Just to be clear I didn’t mean my comment to reflect badly on Selina specifically. If anyone got that impression I apologize. I appreciate her taking the time to share her thoughts.

I was just making the more general observation that there seem to be a lot of books, seminars, consulting services, portfolio review services, etc. cropping up all aimed at the “how to be a successful photographer” topic. I’m sure some of these things have been around forever, but it just seems like the volume of services seems to be increasing at a pretty steep rate.

Only a couple have been mentioned on this site, but I get unsolicited material (spam and snail mails) pushing this sort of stuff all the time. That leads me to wonder two things:

1. When do the number of experts offering to help you become a successful photographer exceed the number of actual successful photographers? I’m thinking we may be beyond that point already.

2. Since much of this advice seems somewhat formulaic, when do people who break all the rules start getting more attention than the conformists?

A lot of this information has been very helpful. Some of it seems redundant. Some just common sense. But clearly you could go broke trying to become a successful photographer.

And photography is not a static business, nor should should one’s portfolio be static. The best photographers are continuing to try things out (I think Nadev Kander’s an example of someone who doesn’t rest on his laurels).

-Neil