(2)How long does a typical job last? The length of a shoot is relative to subject matter (products vs models) but there had to be a general time line from bid to final images delivered, right? Do typical commercial photographers have gigs lined up back to back or is there space between shoots?

Paul

AHHH!! This is what I see as Wisdom with this topic:

“…the question of adding one should be asked by the photographer and rep NOT the buyer. It is when they are pushing you to reduce costs, you can decide if this would help you agreeing to taking the job.”

Yes, yes, yes….. In my market clients ASK me this all the time. But they want me to take a “Bath” on the invoice in exchange. No way.

I would never have thought to work it the other way around! Brilliant…But only when it will, potentially, actually benefit your career.

Thank you.

I am there with you on that. I have been in business for 13 years. I work in a smallish market. And most of my work comes from regional publications/a few local agency jobs/corporate/ and small business.

I am, this year, starting to market to a larger audience. But still have my local clientele. I have been trying out new pricing models for several years, and in the process have lost more jobs then I can shake a stick at. When I inquire why, it has nothing to do with my work. It always came down to my pricing. There was always somebody bidding lower then me. And in the area where I live price rules, not talent. This is why I am leaving this market AS SOON AS I CAN

I tend to use codb as a base line for my quotes in this area. After all, if codb is not covered then in the end I will be in the red. After I determine that I then add creative fees on top, for my income. For small business’ I educate them that this fee is what they are paying me, and that the other line items are what they are- CODB. Unfortunately, I can not charge usage fees to small business’ in this small market.

If it is a job for a local Agency I price it as such, they are a different beast, even here. And publications, well they have their own pricing structure.

Every client and job is different. As Craig said “there is no one size fits all”. Heck, I get lots of repeat clients, but each job they need done is different, and in different years- so each job, for the same client is different. Even for the same amount of work.

Lesson here, I think, is you need to know you CODB so that you Can be profitable, no matter who your client is, or how small the job. If your potential clients wants to pay below your CODB, let alone your creative fee, then walk away.

Each job, and each geographic market is different. If I tried to charge the same rates to a local business as I would to a local ad agency they would laugh at me and move on. Well, I have bills to pay. So I quote according to customer/client and their job/budget.

But I always take into account CODB.

All that said, you can bet your bottom dollar that once my new marketing campaign starts to pay off (fingers crossed) and I begin to get work in larger markets I will be pricing by usage, and what the market will bear. But I will always account for CODB.

http://gregceoblog.com/what-a-rep-can-do-for-your-business-part-iii

http://gregceoblog.com/part-ii-how-to-e-mail-reps-to-see-if-they-are-interested

http://gregceoblog.com/so-you-want-to-find-a-rep-think-about-the-cost-first

I’m not attached, either way. I’m open to what is actual. I’ve been looking at this industry and other creative arts industries to develop a true picture. An understanding of how these markets function.

I’m not rich, and have been creating images since well before digital. I do it as well or better than any other skill. However, I am starting to reassess – including past beliefs, assumptions, and dogmas.

btw – ROI = “Return on Investment”! (or rate of return) An important difference from “rate of investment”.

All the best!

I think you are missing my point entirely, Susan. While there may be gigs in all the areas mentioned above, the market is glutted with images, image makers, photo shoppers, etc. The current economy and the loss of projects in better paying sectors adds to the pressure.

ROI !!!!! That is the big question in all markets and genres of photography.

Showing anecdotal evidence that Jane Doe netted $100K this year, last, or next does describe the market well, and may not even describe the individuals career well.

Ask some of the top actors, musicians, athletes, or photographers how they are adapting to the market. They don’t have to adapt much, they are in that very slim percent at the top. The reason this has become such a big topic over the years is the shrinking of the middle class of photography. The top is still there, the bottom too.

How many other businesses or professions follow the carrot on a stick model? How many students would study fields outside of the arts if their area of study (doctor, lawyer, engineer, MBA, etc.) had the same business model and prospects as those creating images? Look at the photographer’s entire career, say 35 years. Now divide the net income over that time. Look at the time energy, and resources applied over 35 years vs the return.
Compare it to other career opportunities.

Now, this may seem like criticism. It’s not. It’s honest feedback. There is a reality here which needs to be described to understand the complete picture.

Stock – It is my opinion that stock imagery is doing so poorly more because of the glut of imagery, than the shift to client direct. Though the influx of “good enough” and consumer digital may also be a strong influence.

Family photography – is a business like any other, and requires more effort than just weekends to do well.

Corporate – The backbone of corporate imagery has been for annual reports. But annual report production is down. Stock images are being sourced, and consumer digital is also being used. http://www.american.com/archive/2008/january-february-magazine-contents/annual-report-r-i-p

Editorial – Carrot on stick. Editorial jobs can get the occasional cherry project. More often they produce more low paying editorial gigs. I’ve also seen clients expect low fees from an editorial photographer because of the knowledge that editorial pays less. There are a few editorial photographers that seem to do VERY well with it, like Winters and Leibovitz. I’ll be honest, I don’t know that much about editorial photography – especially rates.

Art – Again if you are at the top, art is producing amazing returns. If not…. ROI ???

The other markets not mentioned are those supplying photographers. Some of which appear to be doing very well.

Thank you so much for writing. You are not only a talented photographer but a smart businessman. A producer is worth their weight in gold, a bad one can ruin your chances of getting a job or repeat business. I have some great stories to share and some horror stories too. Hmmm, I see another forum for a later date!!

It depends on your interests and what floats your boat to see how you would diversify.

If you want to add Family and Wedding Photographer where it seems photographers are adding to their income but you have to decide about giving up your weekends.

Client direct has been an increasing area and why stock has taken such a hit. Client direct has found that the “double vision” with out the clients brand was costly and therefore client’s are shooting libraries that cater just to them and adds their brand (product).

Editorial is worth the photo credit if it is a good publication although my recent Bon Appetit I didn’t think was the caliber I am used to and makes me wonder if they are using unknowns and not paying what they were paying known food shooters like Con Poulos (brumlconlon.com) so I am wondering if this is a new trend. One that I will be watching. I read photo credits more then the articles sometimes.

Corporate is great if you are able to show the business as its capabilities. In other words not just CEO head shot but the whole structure of the business.

Advertising/Graphic Designers still have the money and am still seeing art buyers/producers over worked and traveling on shoots (from my FB friends who are buyers and their status)and the fees are definitely a big pay off on the rate per time ratio.

Music- think of CD tangible sales and its decrease since itunes and it is not an area I would put all my time into
Art- in these times this is an area people are cutting back- I think of the Christie’s auction where AMAZING fine art prints from famous artists didn’t sell for what they should so you have to lay out a lot of money upfront so ROI is risky.

Does that help??

What other markets besides these? :

- Stock: Not so hot these days (over saturated), ROI?

- Editorial: ROI?

- Corporate: Hasn’t the market shrunk considerably?

- Client direct: Maybe. But in this economy? ROI?

- Advertising: Extremely competitive, economy, ROI?

- Family photography: Extremely competitive, economy, ROI?

- Music: :o

- Art: ROI?

ROI seems to be where gravity kicks in the business of photography today. Thoughts?

@ $20K per story, he could have even lost money. Depends on the production costs. I’ve heard of catering costs being higher. Conde Nast (and many others) are known for being tight with fees.
http://www.pdnpulse.com/.m/2009/09/photo-cuts-expected-at-condé-nast.html