If your photographer is good in a style and that’s the style you are selling then they should have ample samples of their own work to put into treatments. That’s the real reason agency people hire photographers, they have their own work and their own way of doing the work. If the clients are only interested in literal “proof of concept” they should just buy the images swiped for the treatment as stock and use them in their campaigns.

I’m starting to think that the consultants do more harm then good by trying to imply that what works for a few large agencies with legions of lazy art buyers is the lingua Franca of the thousands and thousands of region agencies here in the US. If we did pre-production treatment for each project, with design elements and branding and original essays (might as well give the copywriters some free stuff too) we’d never have time to actually do the jobs.

There are a small number of jobs at the top. There are an enormous number of jobs at the middle. Consultants seem to presume that everyone is chasing the top of the market but the reality (and it’s important to show a balanced picture to all the people entering the field) is that most jobs will not be so bountiful as to make intricate sub-campaigns by the photographer either profitable or sustainable. Even in the ad agency business there is a constant push not to do speculative work for clients.

Sketches and pitches yes. Spec work? No. Give me a retainer and I’ll give you all the treatments you might want…..

These are just my opinions and not meant as attacks on any other posters.

tom

Tom

tom

How UN-Canadian of you.

Also, if someone is going to use another photographer’s work in a Treatment to suggest ‘mood’, the photographer should actually get a photo credit. However, this is still dubious ground, both in terms of copyright and ethics.

It is one thing to open a book with a published image in it, and say “this is the feel I am going for”, but quite different to ‘grab’ some images off the net and include them in a PDF. By putting them in a PDF you are reformatting them. My Terms and Conditions do not allow clients to indiscriminately reformat images I provide to them – usage is strictly controlled, too.

I know the argument that ad agencies ‘pitch’ for jobs, and that it follows that so to should photographers. Ad Agencies though are often kept on retainer by their clients, which allows them the luxury to pitch.

I recently pitched for a job in conjunction with a graphic design company, to a large government department. The department wanted to know how the design of a new brochure would be done, as well as wanting some designs for the cover, etc. My designer friend decided he would not do or provide designs prior to getting the job, for several reasons, one of which being that it is set out in the charter of conduct at AGDA (Australian Graphic Designers Assoc), of which he is a member, that members do not do this. The photography component of the brochure, would be, I knew complicated. I did a rough mock up shot in my studio to exemplify an approach to accompany the pitch. I spent plenty of time working out an estimate, some of which involved having a meeting with a set designer, so he could quote. Finally the designer and I went to the pitch session. We described to a panel of 12 people at the dept how we would approach the brochure. Needless to say, we did not get the job. The feedback later was that we had outlined the clearest strategy for the brochure, and had the most detailed costings, of the three competing firms. However, we had not provided designs. Never mind that the other firms we were competing against had no photographers involved in their pitches.

I fully support Treatments if the commissioning agent is prepared to pay for it. There should be a budget in place to pay those who supply written Treatments for the work required. Working out the ‘look’ of the photography is the main creative component of the job. To not get paid for the ‘creative’ undermines your negotiating position.

If you as a photographer are not going to get hired for YOUR style, look, or creative, then maybe it is time to move across into becoming an ad agency yourself (!)
:)

I don’t think these treatments are meant to steal any work away from any other photographer. They’re meant to be used as more of a mood board of sorts. If the specific photographer that is bidding on the job hasn’t shot anything with the particular styling or such that they know is needed for a new project should they just not bid job? That’s silly. They were asked to bid the job before any treatment was seen and thus something about that particular photographer’s worked before the treatment was even a thought, so there really wasn’t anything to steal. I think we need to come together as an art community, making the unit itself stronger. I would never allow anyone to re-shoot something as it was in a comp or moodboard. When I’ve got the budget, I will always get comp drawings. However, the reality of that means that I’ve then got less of a production budget for the shoot, regardless of who is shooting it. Also, the easier we are on each other, the easier it is to get the client to understand the value of photography….any photography. This spreads to not just one client/photographer, but all. Photography is a tough sell these days in a world of micro-stock sites and amateur photographers that really don’t care at all about how them selling their weekend warrior photo for a few pennies impacts photographers that use this business to make their living. These treatments help me show the client that value in not just the final photography, but the entire process and experience.

I don’t have a bias either way. I try to look at the reality.
I did make that comment which you quoted. It is how I see our cultural environment. Yet at the same time, it is quite obvious that some people and businesses use the specific expression (the art or meme’s) these originators have created for great personal advantage (interest).

Rarely is there any acknowledgment, or compensation. I believe you may have considered my quote as an acceptable rationalization of how to conduct business. I do not consider it acceptable. It is just a description of how some ideas are used today.

It is easier than ever today to get by on others ideas.
It is no easier today to create ones own ideas – especially with the constraints of time and budget.

What do you call borrowing or using without permission, acknowledgment, or compensation?

Is it possible that one can “help” and still be violating another’s standards?

Suzanne, No anger here.

If the shoe fits!
If the shoe does not fit – why throw a tantrum?
I’ll assume we all all adults, capable of making or own choices, decisions, forming opinions, and voicing opinions.

I happen to feel that using another artists work (without permission or compensation) crosses the line.

Will you allow me my own opinion?

The advert/marketing agencies have been incredibly cavalier over the years in using other artists work for their comps. Again without permission, without compensation. It is OFTEN taken for granted that this is how business is done. An artist that objects to being *used* in this way will be blacklisted.

If these images/art uses were not important this prepro media (including comps) would not be part of the procedure.

Is borrowing without permission any more ethical because the artist has been approached by reps?

Decaf? Never!!

Tom, the photographer showcased in this thread presented a “treatment” for a photo shoot that incorporates another photographers images and it seems, without permission.

Should we just assume this is OK or should we get angry? Would it be OK If I took your imagery to pitch a job with?

I frequently get presented treatments that are NOT my photography and I always tell my clients that any copyright infringement is generally on the shoulders of the person using it for commercial gain. This can temper the direction to “look and feel” rather than a direct copy. I also have my work used in the treatments(sometimes without permission but since they are shown to me I would assume with the intention of me actually doing the work) and sometimes a test shoot is part of the process but only after I am awarded the work.